PARIS: HERE WE ARE OUTSIDE OF 127 MOUNT VERNON STREET, WHERE SEVEN STRANGERS ONCE WERE PICKED TO LIVE IN A HOUSE TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED WHEN PEOPLE STOP BEING POLITE AND STARTED BEING REAL.

THE REAL WORLD BOSTON SEEMS LIKE A LIFETIME AGO, RIGHT ON THE CUSP OF THE HIGH-STAKES COMPETITION FORMAT WE SEE ON REALITY TV TODAY.

THESE DAYS, NETWORKS LIKE MTV, HDTV, AND TLC ARE CANCELING SHOWS LEFT AND RIGHT AS VIEWERSHIP DECLINED, AND THE MEDIA LANDSCAPE CHANGES BID LAST YEAR, A RESEARCH GROUP FOUND THE ANNUAL NUMBER OF UNSCRIPTED AND REALITY SERIES PREMIERING IN THE U.S.

DROPPED BY ONE-THIRD SINCE BEING A PEAK IN 2022.

WHAT IS KILLING REALITY TV?

WHEN YOU LOOK AT SHOWS LIKE "LOVE ISLAND," IT CAN BE HARD TO BELIEVE THERE’S A PROBLEM.

SEASON SEVEN OF THE DATING REALITY SHOW WAS PEACOCK CLOSING MOST-WATCHED ORIGINAL SEASON OF ALL TIME, BUT LET’S BE HONEST, SEASON SEVEN WAS A MESS, LITTERED WITH CONCERT -- CONTROVERSY, FROM RACIST COMMENTS TO TOXIC FANS HARASSING THEM.

RECENTLY, ABC CANCELED ITS UPCOMING SEASON OF "THE BACHELORETTE," JUST THREE DAYS BEFORE ITS PREMIER, AMIDST DOMESTIC VIOLENCE ALLEGATIONS AGAINST THE STAR TAILING FOR IT -- TAYLOR FRANKIE PAUL.

MANY ARE WONDERING WHETHER THIS IS THE END OF THE FRANCHISE ALTOGETHER.

A RECENT DOCUMENTARY ABOUT AMERICA’S NEXT TOP MODEL GAVE VIEWERS A GLIMPSE INTO THE COMPLICATED WORLD OF REALITY TV BEHIND THE SCENES.

RAISE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHERE MISSTEPS COULD FALL, GIVEN THAT SUPERMODEL TYRA BANKS WAS THE MASTERMIND BEHIND THE WHOLE THING.

MANY PEOPLE POINTED OUT SHE WAS NOT ACTING ALONE.

SHE WAS PART OF THE REALITY TV MACHINE.

AMERICA’S NEXT TOP MODEL IS RENOWNED FOR MAINSTREAMING THE NICHE WORLD OF MODELING, BUT IT CAME AS A COST.

FOR YEARS, HOST AND CREATOR TYRA BANKS WAS THE SHOW’S VILLAIN, AND SHE’S NOT THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN WHO’S BEEN THE BRUNT OF THE BLAME AND REALITY TV, THINK OF SHOWS LIKE LOVE AND HIP-HOP AND BASKETBALL WIVES.

SO WHAT DOES PROTECTING LOOK LIKE WHEN THE ALLEGED EXPLOITER ALSO HOLDS THE MARGINALIZED IDENTITY?

TO HELP US UNPACK THAT, WERE JOINED BY COURTNEY BOSTON OF THE MEDIA AND CONSULTING FIRM, AND MODELING COACH SOPHIA, OWNER OF A MODEL AND TALENT COMPANY.

THIS EPIC ERA OF ENTERTAINMENT HAS BURST FROM TODAY’S BIGGEST CELEBRITIES AND LAID THE GROUNDWORK FOR AND DEMAND WORKERS GET ARE NOT NECESSARILY SAYING THAT’S BEEN A GOOD THING EITHER BUT IT’S A CULTURE WE’VE ALL PLAYED INTO, AND MAYBE THAT’S THE ISSUE ALL ALONG.

WE KNOW THE PROBLEM, NOW LET’S GET TO THE ROOT OF IT.

I’M PARIS ALSTON, AND THIS IS ROOTED.

BEFORE WE GET INTO THIS CONVERSATION, LET’S TAKE A LOOK AT PROBABLY THE MOST FAMOUS MOMENT FROM AMERICA’S NEXT TOP MODEL.

>> WHEN MY MAMA YELLED AT ME LIKE THIS IT’S BECAUSE SHE LOVED ME.

I WAS ROOTING FOR YOU.

WE WERE ALL ROOTING FOR YOU.

HOW DARE YOU?!

>> A LOT GOING ON, RIGHT?

THAT CLIP IS SO MUCH IN THE CANON, IT’S BEEN REFERENCED ON FAMILY GUY, ETC.

COURTNEY, AFTER WATCHING THIS DOCUMENTARY, IS IT MORE LAYERED THAN JUST TYRA YELLING AT SOMEBODY?

COURTNEY: YEAH.

OF COURSE THE CLIPS AND SOUND BITES, IT’S 15, NOW THAT IT HAS BEEN REMIXED AND PUT OUT THERE INTO SOCIALS, IT HAS OTHER CONTEXT AND DEEPER CONTEXT, AND I THINK ESPECIALLY IN OUR CURRENT WORLD VERSUS 2000 AND, YOU KNOW, EARLY 2000’S, THERE’S A DIFFERENT ENERGY AROUND IT.

THE ENERGY AND JUST THE ANGER AND HATING ON TYRA AND YELLING AT A YOUNGER BLACK WOMAN, I KNOW THERE ARE OTHER THINGS SURROUNDING, PEOPLE SPEAKING ABOUT JUST THE CONTROVERSIALNESS AROUND IT.

FOR ME, I WAS LIKE "HAH!"

[LAUGHTER] BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IT’S A LOT DEEPER THAN THAT.

YOU FEEL THE LAYERS OF IT.

WAS SHE WRONG?

MAYBE SHE IS IN.

PARIS: SHE IS THE WHOLE FOCAL POINT OF THIS DOCUMENTARY, RIGHT?

WE SEE TYRA LOOKING BACK AT A YOUNGER VERSION OF HER SELF THAT EXISTED AT A TIME LIKE CORDY IS SAYING, WERE CERTAIN THINGS ARE ACCEPTABLE.

SOPHIA, IS IT FAIR FOR ALL THE BLAME TO BE FALLING ON HER?

SOPHIA: NO.

-- SAFIYA: NO.

I WATCHED THE FIRST FIVE OR SIX SEASONS ADAMANTLY, AND THEN WATCHING THIS DOCUMENTARY, I THINK THERE IS SOME ACCOUNTABILITY THAT CAN BE HELD, BECAUSE THE TRAIN IS ONLY AS STRONG AS THE ENGINEER, RIGHT?

BECAUSE TYRA WAS THE FACE, SHE WAS THE PRODUCER, SHE HAD TO TAKE ACCOUNTABILITY, WHETHER SHE WAS IN DIRECT CONTROL OR NOT, BECAUSE THIS WAS HER PROJECT, AND SHE WAS THE LEADER.

SO ANYONE FOLLOWING HER, IT’S UP TO HER.

I DID HEAR SOME APOLOGIES.

SOME OF THEM COULD HAVE MAYBE GOT A LITTLE BIT DEEPER.

WE DON’T KNOW WHAT THE BACK CONVERSATIONS WERE.

LIKE COURTNEY SAID, WE ARE ONLY SEEING LITERALLY 30 SECONDS OF MAYBE A THREE-HOUR INTERACTION.

PARIS: AND THEY SAID THAT WAS NOT EVEN THE WORST OF WHAT SHE SAID!

[LAUGHTER] SAFIYA: EXACTLY.

AND WE DON’T KNOW WHAT HER RESPONSE BACK WAS THAT CAP THIS KIND OF LIKE NEGATIVE INTERACTION GOING AND GOING AND GOING.

AM I HERE TO JUDGE, CAST BLAME?

I STILL SEE THEM THINGS THAT COULD HAVE BEEN DONE DIFFERENTLY.

I GUESS WE WILL DIVE INTO A DEEPER, BUT THERE WERE AREAS WHERE I UNDERSTOOD TYRA’S DECISION BECAUSE OF THE TIME THAT THAT SHOW WAS BEING PRODUCED AND WHAT THE SOCIETY WAS PUTTING AS A DEMAND.

THIS IS WHAT WE WANT.

PARIS: YEAH.

TO THAT POINT, WHAT WAS ACCEPTABLE THEN THAT WE ARE LOOKING BACK NOW AND SAYING OH NO, THAT CANNOT HAPPEN IN 2026?

>> I FEEL LIKE THE INTENTION BEHIND IT CAN FOLLOW YOU EVERYWHERE, THE MOMENTS THAT ARE NOT NICE.

I FEEL LIKE A LOT OF REALITY TV EVEN NOW, THEY GET TO MOMENTS THAT ARE LIKE OK, TYRA SHOULD NOT HAVE GOTTEN THAT.

ESPECIALLY THE EARLY 2000’S COME OF THE TIME WAS REALLY DIFFERENT, WHERE THERE WAS REALLY NO BOUNDARY WITH WHAT THEY WERE FILMING.

I THINK THEY JUST WANTED TO PRODUCE A GREAT SHOW, AND GET PEOPLE TO CONTINUE TO WATCH.

THEY GOT CAUGHT UP IN THAT.

I THINK TYRA AND HER TEAM LOOKING BACK ON THAT NOW, ACCOUNTABILITY THAT THEY SAID OK, WE SHOULD NOT HAVE DONE THAT, WE SHOULD NOT ASSUME THAT.

I DO THINK THERE IS A LOT OF GROWING THAT THE INDUSTRY HAS DONE, STILL A LOT OF WORK TO DO DEFINITELY WITH THAT, BUT I FELT TYRA IN THAT SCENE, BECAUSE SHE REALLY SAW HERSELF IN THE MODEL.

THAT MODEL CAME FROM NOTHING.

SHE DID NOT HAVE A LOT OF OPPORTUNITIES.

SHE FELT LIKE SHE WAS MAKING A MOCKERY OF THE MOMENT AND SAY, OH GIRL, PLEASE, I’M GOING HOME, IT’S FIVE.

THEY WERE KIND OF BRUSHING IT OFF LIKE THIS WAS NOT A BIG OPPORTUNITY.

WHAT TYRA’S BUILDING AND WHAT SHE BUILT WAS A BIG OPPORTUNITY.

PARIS: BUT THERE WERE QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW BIG IT ACTUALLY WAS, RIGHT?

BECAUSE WE SAW PEOPLE LIKE DANI EVANS, I WENT ON AND DID NOT DO A WHOLE LOT WITH MY CAREER, BUT THAT IS NOT EXACTLY WHAT THE SHOW PROMISED.

SAFIYA: EXACTLY.

A PROMISE AND OPPORTUNITY.

NO GUARANTEE OF A SUPER STAR, WHETHER YOU SIGNED DIRECTLY WITH FORD OR OTHERS COME NO ONE CAN PROMISE YOU THAT TOMORROW THE CALLS WILL COME IN AND YOU WILL GET A $100,000 JOB.

THE ONLY ONE I CAN HONESTLY PROMISE YOU IS THERE TIME, ENERGY, AND KNOWLEDGE.

YOU GOT THAT FROM THE SHOW, WHETHER YOU WON OR DID NOT WIN.

IF YOU DID NOT WALK AWAY LEARNING SOMETHING, THAT I QUESTION YOU.

TANESHIA: AND AS A BECAUSE OF THESE MODELS THAT WERE PART OF "AMERICA’S NEXT TOP MODEL," WERE THEY NOT PROVIDED PART OF THE OPPORTUNITY, BECAUSE THEY WERE ON THE TYRA BANKS PLATFORM, AS A BLACK WOMAN, SOME OF THE WOMEN HAVING COMPLAINTS WERE MINORITIES AS WELL, AND WE HEARD FROM ONE CAUCASIAN MODEL AS WELL.

IS IT BECAUSE OF A TYRA BANKS PLATFORM AND IT’S HER SHOW, I WONDER.

PARIS: YOU HAVE SOME THOUGHTS ABOUT THAT.

COURTNEY: YEAH.

AND WE TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THIS.

MY LENS HIM I’M ALWAYS LOOKING AT REALITY SHOWS, WHEN WE DO THINGS AS BLACK PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY BLACK WOMEN, THERE’S THE BLACK TAX AND THE BLACK WOMAN TAX ON THINGS.

FOR TYRA’S INNOVATION, WHATEVER HER ORIGINAL PLAN WAS, WE WILL FLIP THE INDUSTRY ABOUT BEING THIN, WHITE, TALL, BLONDE, EVEN HER SUCCESS WAS A THREAT TO WHAT THE INDUSTRY WAS SAYING HAD TO BE THE WAY, SO YES, MAYBE THESE MODELS DID NOT GET THE OPPORTUNITY THAT THEY THOUGHT, BUT I WOULD BE QUESTION, NO, IT IS NOT BECAUSE OF TYRA, IT WAS THE INDUSTRY WANTING TO SABOTAGE OR NOT HAVE THAT STORYLINE BE LIKE OH YOU CAN DO IT THIS WAY, BECAUSE THEY’VE BEEN SELLING A DIFFERENT STORY.

PARIS: YOU ARE JUST HERE BECAUSE YOU WERE ON "TOP MODEL."

TANIA: I WOULD SAY IT WOULD GRANT PEOPLE A LOT OF OPPORTUNITIES.

I THINK THAT TYRA NEEDS TO BE MINDFUL THAT SHE’S DEALING WITH A WHOLE GENERATION OF PEOPLE, AND THEY WILL TAKE THAT OR PIT IT AND BRING THEIR OWN FIRE TO THE SET.

ASHLEY: I THINK A FAIR AMOUNT OF RESPONSIBLY FUZZ ON HER, BECAUSE IT WAS HER CONCEPT, BUT THERE’S ALSO PRODUCERS, EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS.

THERE IS THE PROBLEM WITHIN THE INDUSTRY, REGARDING WEIGHT, LOOKS, SKIN TONE, AND ALL KINDS OF STUFF.

I THINK IT HAS TO BE A SHARED RESPONSIBILITY.

TANESHIA: EXACTLY.

AND I THINK THE OPPORTUNITIES THAT COME ABOUT IN THE INDUSTRY AS A WHOLE, BECAUSE I’M AN ENTERTAINER, HAVE BEEN ALL MY LACK OF A SONGWRITER, ACTRESS, ALL THE THINGS.

WHEN YOU ARE IN THE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY, YOU HAVE TO PAVE IT AND REALLY ROOM FOR YOURSELF IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT ROOMS.

YOU CANNOT JUST DEPEND ON A TV SHOW TO BRING YOU TO THAT MOMENT.

I OVERHEARD ONE OF THE MODELS SAY IN ONE OF THE CONFESSIONALS THAT SHE COULD NOT USE ANY OF THE PHOTOS FROM "TOP MODEL," BECAUSE THEY WERE OVER EDITED.

[LAUGHTER] IT IS PART OF A PORTFOLIO.

SAFIYA: IT IS PART OF A PORTFOLIO, BUT WHAT I WAS ANNOYED BY IT OR SLIGHTLY FRUSTRATED WAS IF SHE DID NOT FULLY POSITIVE FROM IT, SHE ONLY TOOK THE NEGATIVE.

TANESHIA: YES.

SAFIYA: YOU SHOULD NOT BE A ONE LOOK WONDER.

SHE SHOULD BE ABLE TO HAVE THAT AND THE BODY LANGUAGE THAT YOU CAN GO INTO A REGULAR STATUTE --REGULAR SHOOT AND GIVE IT TO THEM.

TANESHIA: YES.

SAFIYA: I FELT LIKE THERE WAS A LOT OF WHAT I DID NOT GET, AND THIS IS -- INSTEAD OF SAYING, THIS IS WHAT I GOT.

PARIS: WITH PEOPLE LIKE JONES, EVEN MARCEL.

[OVERLAPPING DISCUSSION] SAFIYA: EXACTLY.

TANESHIA: SHE WAS NOT ON I DIRECT.

COURTNEY: NOPE, NOPE.

SAFIYA: THE ONE WHO REALLY DID END UP HAVING A DECENT AMOUNT OF SUCCESS.

COURTNEY: AND THAT IS THE POINT RIGHT THERE.

WE ARE WATCHING THIS FOR ENTERTAINMENT, AND IT IS ENTERTAINMENT.

IT IS SOMEBODY’S STORY, LENDS THEM AND THEY ARE AND IF THEY WANT TO PUSH THAT EVEN THE SOUND BITES, WHEN THE GIRLS ARE TALKING, I DO NOT THINK THAT WHEN WE ARE DOING THE CONFESSIONALS, THAT IT WOULD BE POSITIONED IN THAT WAY, WE HAVE TO TAKE A DOCUMENTARY FOR THE SAME KIND OF THING.

THERE IS AN ANGLE AND A STORYLINE THAT NEEDS TO BE PUSHED, BECAUSE JAY IS DOING MEDIA TOURS RIGHT NOW, SO IS MUCH AS PEOPLE WANT TO HATE ON TYRA, THIS PLATFORM IS ALLOWING FOR CERTAIN THINGS TO HAPPEN.

IT’S LIKE NO, LIKE, THIS DOCUMENTARY, THERE’S SOME FASHION, BUT WE ARE ALSO ONLY HEARING WHAT YOU WANT ME TO BE ABLE TO HEAR.

PARIS: YOU RAISE AN IMPORTANT POINT ABOUT ALL THE PEOPLE IN LINE BEHIND TYRA.

YES, SHE WAS THE ONE ENGINEERING THIS, SHE WAS A VISIONARY, BUT THERE WERE OTHER PEOPLE.

THERE ARE MULTIPLE SCENES WHERE THE JUDGES WERE ALSO AT FAULT FOR PERPETUATING SOME OF THESE HARMS.

COURTNEY: LIKE HOMEGROWN JANICE!

SAFIYA: EXACTLY.

YOU KNOW WHAT JANICE DID?

JANICE COMES FROM OLD SCHOOL.

I’M GOING TO TELL Y’ALL AS SOMEONE WHO WORKS WITH MODELS, OWNS MY OWN COMPANY, I STARTED MODELING WHEN I WAS 12.

AS AN AFRICAN AMERICAN WOMAN COMING OUT OF NEW ENGLAND, THEY HAVE NO TRAINING IN PSYCHOLOGY, RIGHT?

HOW TO TALK TO PEOPLE.

TO TELL MODELS, "I DON’T LIKE YOUR FEET."

[LAUGHTER] TANESHIA: SHE WAS GIVING THEM THE REAL DEAL.

SAFIYA: THAT’S WHAT THEY WERE RAISED TO GIVE YOU HAVE TO ALSO REMEMBER THAT THESE MODELS, MENTORS, THAT WERE PART OF THE SHOW WERE RAISED BY THIS INDUSTRY.

THEY CAN ONLY MENTOR BASED OFF WHAT THEY ARE EXPERIENCING.

PARIS: I WANT TO SHOW A CLIP HERE, BECAUSE THERE’S A MOMENT THAT STICKS OUT, WHERE THE JUDGES WERE TALKING TO ONE OF THE MODELS, YAYA DACOSTA.

>> I THINK YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL.

PEOPLE PROBABLY PEG YOU AS THE GAIN FOR THE TYPICAL AFRICAN HAT.

>> YAYA IS LIKE HALF AFRICAN, HAVE TO REST THEM I’M NOT FEELING IT.

>> YOU HAVE A TENDENCY TO TRY TO PROVE YOUR AFRICANESS, AND I THINK IT IS TOO MUCH FROM OVERBEARING, LIKE A LAYER ON TOP OF A LAYER.

SAFIYA: HMM.

[LAUGHTER] PARIS: OK.

YOU COULD SEE TYRA.

SAFIYA: I GET YOU DID NOT LIKE HER SENSE OF STYLE AS IT WAS.

YOU HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF -- PARIS: CROSS-CULTURAL.

[CROSSTALK] SAFIYA: DO I LIKE IT, NOT LIKE IT?

I CAN TELL YOU, I LIKED YOUR PIECES BUT NOT TOGETHER.

TO DIG INTO HER CULTURE, I THINK IT IS TOO MUCH.

TANESHIA: I’VE SEEN PLENTY OF MODELS, ENTERTAINERS, THAT YOU SEE THEM OFFSCREEN, AND YOU ARE LIGHT, WHAT ARE THEY WEARING?

BUT IT DOES NOT TAKE AWAY FROM THEIR TALENT, OR THE FACT THAT THEY ARE EXTRAORDINARY ENTERTAINERS AND MODELS.

I THINK KNOCKING HER DOWN THAT WAY AND TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, DIMINISH HER SELF-ESTEEM IN THAT WAY I THINK IS JUST NONSENSE.

IT JUST DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE.

ANNIE: HONESTLY I THINK THE SHOW IS GOOD TO GIVE PEOPLE OPPORTUNITY, BUT I FEEL LIKE SOME OF THE THINGS SHE DID TO THE GIRLS, LIKE CUTTING THEIR HAIR OR JUST CERTAIN, LIKE, CHANGES TO THEIR IMPAIRMENTS -- THEIR APPEARANCE, NO MORE BLACK FACE, ACTUALLY LET THE BLACK MODELS, LIKE, MODEL FOR THAT CERTAIN KIND OF SHOE.

PARIS: NOT ONLY THIS MOMENT BUT THE DOCUMENTARY OF THE WHOLE REVEAL SHOWS US A LOT ABOUT THE INDUSTRY.

WHEN YOU SAY THE INDUSTRY HAS GROWN AND CHANGED AT ALL.

TANESHIA: I WANT TO SPEAK FOR MYSELF AND WHAT I’VE SEEN BEING IN THE INDUSTRY FIRSTHAND SINCE THE AGE OF SIX YEARS OLD, I FEEL LIKE THERE ARE DIFFERENT NARRATIVES THAT ARE TRYING TO CHANGE IN CERTAIN WAYS.

I FEEL LIKE BEING BODY CONSCIOUS NOW, I FEEL LIKE WITH MINORITIES AND BLACK PEOPLE BEING MORE INCLUSIVE WITHIN, YOU KNOW, PRODUCING OUR OWN WORK AND HAVING HER OWN VOICE IN THAT WAY HAS BEEN BETTER, BUT I DEFINITELY FEEL LIKE THERE’S STILL A LOT OF STIGMAS AROUND, YOU KNOW, BEING BLACK IN THE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY.

HAVING TO, YOU KNOW, GO ALONG WITH A NARRATIVE OF WHAT OTHER BIG BRANDS AND PEOPLE WANT US TO DO.

AND I FEEL LIKE WE ARE CHANGING IN CERTAIN WAYS, BUT WE ARE DEFINITELY SOMETIMES I FEEL LIKE TAKING 10 STEPS BACK WHEN IT COMES TO A LOT OF THINGS GOOD THAT’S WHY IN "AMERICA’S NEXT TOP MODEL," WAS LIKE LITERALLY ONE OF MY FAVORITE SHOWS GROWING UP.

PARIS: SAME!

TANESHIA: I WAS OBSESSED WITH THE SHOW APPEARED WE KNOW TYRA WAS CREATING THIS INNOVATIVE EXPERIENCE IN THE SHOW APPEARED SHE HAD THIS AMAZING IMPACT ON OUR CULTURE, YOU KNOW, IN OUR INDUSTRY AND WHAT WE ARE DOING NOW COULD I FEEL LIKE, YOU KNOW, THERE’S A LOT OF POSITIVES THAT HAPPEN WITH THE SHOW, BUT OBVIOUSLY THERE’S SOME NEGATIVES AS WELL.

PARIS: YOU ALL STARTED TO BRING UP SHANDY, WHO WAS THE CAUCASIAN WOMAN, WHO FEATURED ONE OF THEM IN THE DOCUMENTARY, THIS IS THE ONE WHO SAID SHE WAS SEXUALLY ASSAULTED ON THE SHOW AND IT WAS CAUGHT ON CAMERA.

AND IT KIND OF HIGHLIGHTS HOW THESE WOMEN WERE, IN MANY CASES, IN THESE OVERLY SEXUALIZED ENVIRONMENTS.

SO EVEN AS WE KNOW THAT WHAT REALITY TV WAS DOING THEN, COURTNEY, LIKE, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE UNDERSTAND BETTER ABOUT HOW WE PROTECT PEOPLE WHO HONESTLY ARE BEING EXPLOITED?

COURTNEY: YEAH.

THE CRAZY THING IS THE MEDIA LANDSCAPE IN ITSELF AND THE NATURE OF THE BEAST OF REALITY TV IS, LIKE, ONCE YOU SIGN THAT DOTTED LINE OR WHATEVER THE CASE IS, IT’S LIKE THEY ARE SIGNING UP.

EVEN TODAY, THEY HAVE "BIG BROTHER," NOT BIG BROTHER, "SURVIVOR," BUT THERE HAS BEEN AN APPETITE FOR, YOU KNOW, THE CULTURE THAT REALITY TV HAS CREATED.

AND NOW IN THIS MORE POST-EPSTEIN AND EVERYBODY ELSE, THESE CONVERSATIONS ARE MORE PREVALENT.

I THINK THERE ARE MORE CONVERSATIONS, AND MAY BE SOCIALLY, PEOPLE IN SOCIAL MEDIA, THE COMMON PERSON, IS MAKING SURE THAT FOLKS ARE MORE AWARE.

BUT I DON’T KNOW THAT I TRUST THAT IN THESE MAINSTREAM SCENARIOS THAT THEY ARE PROTECTING PEOPLE ANYMORE, OR MORE SO THAT WE AS CONSUMERS AND WE IN PRIVATE, SMALLER, INDEPENDENT MEDIA OR, YOU KNOW, THEY SCENARIOS ARE NOW DOING MORE EDUCATION WITH FOLKS AROUND THINGS THAT ARE GOING ON.

I DON’T THINK THAT THE INDUSTRY IS SHIFTING ENOUGH IN A WAY THAT IS SAYING SOMETHING LIKE THAT, YOU KNOW, WON’T HAPPEN OR WHY IT DID HAPPEN, WHAT WE SIGNED UP FOR, AND SOMEBODY MADE THOSE DECISIONS MAYBE IN THAT WAY.

THE SEC AND THINGS LIKE THAT, PEOPLE ARE CUTTING.

WE’VE SWITCHED ANOTHER WAY, TOO, YOU CAN SWEAR MORE ON TV, LIKE THE LINES ARE SO BLURRED.

THERE IS SUCH A BLEND WITH IT.

I WOULD NOT SAY NECESSARILY THAT WE’VE COME SO MUCH FURTHER AND BEING ABLE TO PROTECT YOUNG WOMEN OR PROTECT FOLKS THAT ARE IN VENERABLE -- VULNERABLE POSITIONS AND BEING EXPLOITED.

I THINK SOME FOLKS ARE BEING SMARTER BECAUSE MEDIA IS MORE ACCESSIBLE TO MORE OF US IN DIFFERENT KINDS OF WAYS.

PARIS: AND WHY THE DOCUMENTARY CAME ABOUT, ALL THE COMMENTARY WE SAW ONLINE.

SAFIYA: BECAUSE THE NEW GENERATION IS NOW WATCHING AT 10, 15 YEARS LATER, AND THEY DON’T COME ON SOME LEVELS, THEY DON’T UNDERSTAND THAT THE CULTURE WAS DIFFERENT IN THE BEGINNING OF THE 2000’S.

WHAT THE INDUSTRY ACCEPTED, WANT TO, DIFFERENT.

I’M NOT GOING TO SAY THAT WE HIT THIS AMOUNT OF OVERLY CHANGED, RIGHT?

"WE’VE MADE THE INDUSTRY GREAT!"

BUT YOU SEEN THE SHIFT FROM PLUS SIZE, CURVED MODELS, EVEN AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN.

THERE WAS A HANDFUL OF US, A HANDFUL, AND EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM WAS 12 ON THE SCALE, RIGHT?

WE HAD THE SCALE OF ONE TO 10, NAOMI, IMAN, THEY WERE 12’S, BEAUTIFUL WOMEN, RIGHT?

SO NOW, THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE TO ACHIEVE TO IN ORDER TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY WHEN YOU ARE COMING OUT.

THE STANDARDS WERE HIGHER THEN.

THIS IS WHY YOU DON’T SEE AS MANY AFRICAN-AMERICAN AND LATINO WOMEN IN THESE SUPERSTAR, SUPERMODEL POSITIONS, BECAUSE THEY SET THE BAR.

AND NOW THE INDUSTRY WANTED US ALL TO COME IN AT THAT.

SO THIS IS WHY SHE, FOR EXAMPLE, SHE CAME UP FOR ME WITH HER GAP, AND I SAW BOTH SIDES OF IT.

I UNDERSTAND DANI, IT’S PART OF MAKE OF IT SO I AM, I WANT IT, BUT I UNDERSTAND TYRA, COMING FROM A PLACE AT THAT TIME WHERE SHE WAS NOT GOING TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY.

SHE COULD BE A CAUCASIAN WOMAN WITH A GAP AND BE SUCCESSFUL PEW SHE COULD NOT BE AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN OR LATINO WOMAN WITH A GAP.

THAT IS A FLAW.

SAFIYA: I ALSO FEEL LIKE I WANT TO ADD TO THAT END CERTAIN ASPECTS OF WHEN YOU ARE AN INDIVIDUAL AND YOU ARE IN SPACES WHERE YOU ARE ON REALITY TV, THE CAMERA PHONE, 24/7, YOU HAVE TO BE MINDFUL ABOUT YOUR DECISIONS AND YOUR CHOICES.

IT DOES NOT MATTER, YOU KNOW, YOU ARE GOING TO BE PUT IN SITUATIONS THAT ARE GOING TO BE HARD, CHALLENGING, TESTING YOUR ABILITY TO BE, YOU KNOW, TO HAVE COMMON SENSE.

[LAUGHTER] I FEEL LIKE A LOT OF INSTANCES -- COURTNEY: THEY WOULD TRY TO DO THAT.

TANESHIA: YES!

ANY WOMAN, IF YOU ARE EVER PUT IN A SITUATION WHERE YOU ARE PART OF A GROUP OR YOU ARE FILMING OR ANY OF THESE SPACES WHERE IT IS A PROFESSIONAL SETTING AS WELL, YOU NEED TO BE MINDFUL OF YOUR INDIVIDUAL SELF AND HOLDING YOURSELF ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, HOW YOU ARE ACTING, AND HOW YOU ARE BEING AROUND OTHER PEOPLE AS WELL.

SAFIYA: IT IS OUR JOB AS THE SENIORS, THE MENTORS, IS THAT OUR JOB TO GIVE SOME OF THAT?

BECAUSE A LOT OF THESE GIRLS WERE 17TH AND 18 YEARS OLD.

COURTNEY: THEY ARE BABIES.

THEY ARE INNOCENT.

SAFIYA: RIGHT.

SO AT WHAT POINT DID WE OWN A RESPONSIBILITY TO HAVE THESE KIND OF LIKE LIFE WORKSHOPS?

IS NOT JUST ABOUT THE IDEA OF HOW TO PERFORM ON THE CAMERA BUT OFF THE CAMERA.

PARIS: I KNOW YOU WORK WITH YOUNG WOMEN, YOU WORK WITH YOUNG WOMEN.

COURTNEY: WE ARE PROBABLY ALL PRODUCTS OF MENTORSHIP, SITTING AT THIS TABLE.

I THINK THE BLACK COMMUNITY, BROWN COMMUNITY, WHATEVER THE CASE MAY BE, WE ALWAYS HAD INFORMAL RELATIONSHIPS, AND BEING ABLE TO NOW LOOK PAST, AND I FEEL OLD SAYING THIS, THE CIGARETTE COMMERCIALS.

[LAUGHTER] THAT WOULD NEVER BE ON TV NOW, WHATEVER IT IS.

THIS IS THE WORLD THAT WE ARE LIVING IN.

NOW EVEN MORE SO, WHEN WE ARE WITH COMMUNITY WITH FOLKS BEING ABLE TO HAVE THOSE CONVERSATIONS THAT EVEN TALKING ABOUT IT, AS WELL AS SOCIAL MEDIA, WE ARE SEEING PHONES AND EVERYTHING ELSE, JUST DROPPING FILES TO EACH OTHER IN THE CLASSROOM, LIVES ARE BEING RUINED.

WE CAN HAVE THOSE CONVERSATIONS AND BEING, LIKE, ADAMANT ABOUT THEM, BUT IT IS STILL, YOU KNOW, IT IS STILL HAPPENING, AND WE HAVE TO BE VIGILANT ABOUT SPREADING IT AND DOING OUR BIG SISTER AND AUNTIE.

PARIS: I HAVE ONE LAST QUESTION HERE IN THE TIME THAT WE HAVE LEFT HIM A SIMPLE YES OR NO.

IF A CYCLE 25 COMES AROUND AND YOU KNOW A YOUNG WOMAN WHO WANTS TO BE A MODEL AND SAYS, HEY, I WANT TO GO ON "AMERICA’S NEXT TOP MODEL," ARE YOU TELLING HER YES OR NO, THAT SHE SHOULD DO IT?

TANESHIA: I’M GOING TO TELL HER YES, BUT I’M GOING TO MENTOR HER THROUGH HOW SHE SHOULD BE AND HOW SHE SHOULD, YOU KNOW, NAVIGATE BEING ON REALITY TV AND BEING ON THE BIG PLATFORM.

I’M GOING TO MENTAL HERBICIDE YES, TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE OPPORTUNITY -- BUT I’M GOING TO MENTOR HER AND SAY YES, TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE OPPORTUNITY.

SAFIYA: ABSOLUTELY.

IT’S A GAMBLE, BUT IF YOU ARE PROPERLY TOOLED, IT CAN BE AWESOME, SO YES.

COURTNEY: I’M GOING TO SAY YES COME AND BRING YOUR MAMA AND YOUR AUNTIE.

[LAUGHTER] PARIS: THIS HAS BEEN WONDERFUL.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

AND YOU ARE ALL STILL IN THE RUNNING TO BE "AMERICA’S NEXT TOP MODEL."

[LAUGHTER] YAMILETTE: BUT I DO HAVE TO START WITH THE TIME THIS WAS ALSO FILMED.

I THINK THAT IS THE BIGGEST THING ON THIS DOCUMENTARY.

BACK THEN, THE THEMES AND THE STANDARDS ARE NOT THE SAME.

SO SHE WAS JUST REALLY TRYING TO GIVE PEOPLE A VOICE.

IT IS HER RESPONSIBILITY.

BUT BACK THEN, AND BECAUSE I WAS A TEENAGER, TOO, AND I WATCHED IT, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF SEASONS, I JUST DID NOT THINK SHE WAS ABLE TO CONTROL IT, BECAUSE SHE WAS JUST TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, PUSH THROUGH.

I DON’T THINK THAT SHE HAD THE ABILITY TO.

NOLA: IT’S HER OWN SHOW, LIKE TYRA BANKS’ SUPERMODELS.

IF SHE’S THE ONE KIND OF RUNNING THE SITUATION, LIKE, SURE, THE PRODUCERS COULD HAVE SOME SAY IN WHAT THEY ARE DOING, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, LIKE, THEY WANTED TO DO THINGS FOR MARKET VALUE.

THEY WANT TO THINK THAT WOULD SELL.

THEY WANTED TO CATCH PEOPLE’S ATTENTION.

I THINK ESPECIALLY WHEN THE CHAUFFEUR STARTED AIRING, THE EARLY 2000 -- THAT SHOW FIRST STARTED AIRING, THE EARLY 2000’S, I THINK BACK THEN, THEY WERE NOT REALLY THINKING ABOUT LIKE HOW THINGS AFFECT OTHER PEOPLE AS MUCH.

ANNIE: YEAH.

NOLA: AS WE DO NOW.

AND NOW IT’S KIND OF CRAZY, LIKE A WHITE GIRL IN BLACKFACE.

ASH: I THINK SHE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR SOME OF THE THINGS ON THE SHOW.

I’VE SEEN THE SHOW A COUPLE OF TIMES.

I THINK SHE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR A GREAT MAJORITY OF THE BLAME, BUT ALSO THE PEOPLE WHO WERE I GUESS ON HER SIDE WHO ALSO SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THOSE THINGS.

TANIA: IT IS MORE SO HOW TV KIND OF PLAYS ON THE SIDE OF VIEWERS VERSUS THE SIDE OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ON THE SHOWS.

THAT’S THE BIGGEST ISSUE.

I THINK THAT, AS TIME GOES ON, SENSITIVITY IS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT.

IN THE EARLY 2000’S, YOU COULD GET AWAY WITH A LOT OF THINGS.

FOR EXAMPLE, A LOT OF THE MUSIC THAT EXISTED, SOCIAL MEDIA THAT EXISTED, AND THAT WE HAVE SHIFTED TO A MORE SENSITIVE KIND OF APPEAL.

SO I WOULD SAY SHE HAS THEM RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT, YEAH.

PARIS: THANKS SO MUCH FOR TURNING INTO ROOTED.

YOU CAN