>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," COMING TO YOU FROM THE BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY: AS FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP'S LEGAL OUTLOOK GOES FROM BAD TO WORSE, TWO OF THE TOP LEGAL MINDS IN THE COUNTRY, FORMER FEDERAL JUDGE NANCY GERTNER AND HARVARD LAW'S LAURENCE TRIBE, ARE STANDING BY TO WEIGH IN.

BUT FIRST, A LITTLE SCENE SETTING.

YOU PROBABLY HEARD ABOUT THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL'S ANNOUNCEMENT, THAT SHE'S FILING A CIVIL LAWSUIT AGAINST TRUMP, THREE OF HIS KIDS, AND THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION, ACCUSING THEM OF DEFRAUDING LENDERS, INSURERS, AND OTHERS, OVER THE COURSE OF DECADES.

"STAGGERING," SHE CALLED IT.

STAGGERING ENOUGH TO SEND A CRIMINAL REFERRAL TO THE U.S. ATTORNEY IN MANHATTAN.

AND, YOU MAY HAVE ALSO SEEN THE APPEALS COURT RULING OUT OF ATLANTA THAT CLEARED THE WAY FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO CONTINUE ITS CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION INTO CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS FOUND AT MAR-A-LAGO.

BUT, THOSE ARE FAR FROM TRUMP'S ONLY PROBLEMS.

SOME, YOU'RE LIKELY FAMILIAR WITH-- LIKE THE HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE'S INVESTIGATION INTO HIS INVOLVEMENT IN THE CAPITOL INSURRECTION, AND THE GRAND JURY LOOKING INTO HIS EFFORTS TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION IN GEORGIA.

BUT THERE ARE SEVERAL OTHERS THAT MIGHT NOT BE ON YOUR RADAR, LIKE THE LIKELY LAWSUIT COMING FROM ONE OF SEVERAL WOMEN WHO'VE ACCUSED TRUMP OF SEXUAL ASSAULT, JOURNALIST E. JEAN CARROLL; THE ONGOING BATTLE OVER HIS TAX RETURNS; LAWSUITS FROM MULTIPLE CAPITOL AND D.C. POLICE OFFICERS STEMMING FROM THE INSURRECTION; THE LAWSUIT HIS NIECE, MARY TRUMP, HAS FILED, CLAIMING HE DEFRAUDED HER OUT OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN INHERITANCE, AND THERE ARE MANY MORE.

BUT IN THE INTEREST OF TIME, I'LL STOP THERE, TO ASK: ARE THE WALLS FINALLY CLOSING IN ON THIS LIFELONG ESCAPE ARTIST?

HERE TO ANSWER ARE NANCY GERTNER, RETIRED FEDERAL JUDGE AND SENIOR LECTURER AT HARVARD LAW SCHOOL, AND HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR EMERITUS LAURENCE TRIBE.

JUDGES, LARRY, GOOD TO SEE YOU BOTH, THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> Braude: JUDGE, CAN I START WITH YOU?

LET'S NOT LEAVE PEOPLE IN SUSPENSE, LET'S START AT THE END.

HAS TRUMP USED UP ALL OF HIS LEGAL LIVES?

HAS THE LAW FINALLY CAUGHT UP WITH HIM?

>> IT IS A GENERAL QUESTION.

I THINK THAT THERE ARE STILL LIVES, NEW YORK AIDES THAT STOOD AGAINST HIM, I THINK THERE ARE STILL STUFF HE CAN SAY, THERE ARE DE THENSES THERE.

THAT IS THE LAWSUIT THAT SAYS THAT HE OVERSTATED, DRAMATICALLY OVERSTATED HIS PROPERTY.

HE WILL CLAIM THAT SOMEBODY ELSE DID IT.

THAT HE WENT DIRECTLY INVOLVED.

AND MY FAVORITE ARGUMENT IS HE SAYS IN ALL OF THE DOCUMENTS THAT HE FILED THERE WAS A DISCLAIMER SAYING YOU KNOW, LOOK AT IT YOURSELF.

YOU SHOULD LOOK AT IT I WILL GO SELL A REMBRANDT AND SAY THAT IT IS REAL WHEN IN FACT I JUST SKETCHED IT TOGETHER AND SAY YOU CAN LOOK AT IT YOURSELF.

BUT THAT'S USUALLY NOT ENOUGH.

SO I THINK THERE ARE DEFENSES IN THE CIVIL LAWSUIT THAT DON'T EXIST BUT I THINK HE'S OUT OF LUCK ON THE CLASSIFIED INFORMATION STUFF, THE 11th CIRCUIT DECISIONS LOOK PRETTY CLEAR.

>> Braude: IS HIS LEGAL GOOSE COOKED, LARRY TRIBE?

>> I THINK IT'S COOKED AND OVERCOOKED.

TAKE FOR EXAMPLE LETICIA JAMES REMARKABLE 220 PAGE COMPLAINT.

I FINALLY READ THROUGH IT.

ALL OF THE KINDS OF DEFENSES THAT NANCY GERTNER IS POINTING TO, SHE HAS FULLY ANTICIPATED.

THE DEFENSES SAY I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT OR ARE MET BY PARAGRAPHS IN THE COMPLAINT MAKING IT VERY CLEAR THAT THINGS WERE DONE EXACTLY AT HIS DIRECTION.

AND IN ALL OF THE CRIMINAL CASES THINGS ARE JUST WINDINGS DOWN.

THE 11th CIRCUIT SLAPDOWN O JUDGE CANON'S REMARKABLE RULING IS EXCORIATING AND CRUSHING AND GIVES THE GREENq RICK GARLAND AND LISA MONDAY AK OWE TO GO A HEAD WITH THE INVESTIGATION AND PROSECUTION OF THE DEFENSE OF ESPIONAGE.

AND-- OFFENSE OF ESPIONAGE, THERE HAVE BEEN 40 SUBPOENAS SERVED THAT SHOW THAT MERRICK GARLAND HAS NOT BEEN ASLEEP AT THE SWITCH IN TERMS OF THE ATTEMPTED COUP AND THE INSURRECTION.

SO THE WALLS ARE CLOSING IN.

>> Braude: LET'S TAKE THESE PIECE BY PIECE FOR A FEW MINUTES.

LET'S START WITH THAT APPELLATE COURT RULING.

TWO THINGS STUCK OUT TO ME, LARRY TRIBE, ONE, THAT TWO OF THE THREE JUDGES ON THE APPELLATE COURT WERE TRUMP APPOINTEES, THE SECRETARY THING IS THAT TRUMP'S ARGUMENT THAT HE DE CLASS SPHIED THING, ACTUALLY HE MADE IT YET AGAIN ON SEAN HANNITY LAST NIGHT, HERE ST, >> IF YOU'RE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, YOU CAN DECLASSIFY JUST BY SAYING IT'S DECLASSIFIED-- EVEN BY THINKING ABOUT IT.

>> Braude: JUST BY THINKING ABOUT IT.

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE WHOLE CLASSIFIED INFORMATION IS OFF THE TABLE.

AND IF I'M RIGHT ABOUT THAT, LARRY TRIBE, DOES THAT MEAN THAT ESSENTIALLY THIS JUDGE WHO YOU WROTE, YOU TWEETED ABOUT BEING QUOTE IN THE TANK, THAT ESSENTIALLY THERE IS NOTHING OF CONSEQUENCE LEFT BEFORE HER?

>> WELL, ACTUALLY WHAT IS BEFORE HER IS ONE TRAP AFTER ANOTHER FOR DONALD TRUMP.

WHAT IS HAPPENING IS THAT BECAUSE ALL OF HIS LEGAL DEFENSES ARE JUST NONSENSE AND THEY ARE COLLAPSING, ONE AFTER ANOTHER, HE IS RESORTING IN PUBLIC SATEMENTS TO THINGS LIKE THE TELEPATHY DEFENSE.

THE DEFENSE THAT I JUST THOUGHT MYSELF OUT OF THIS DILEMMA, NONE OF THEM WORK AND HE IS INCRIMINATING HIMSELF OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

IN FACT, JUST A FEW HOURS AGO THE JUDGE WHO IS SPECIAL MASTER IN THIS CASE, ISSUED A NO NONSENSE ORDERS FORKING TRUMP TO SPECIFY THROUGH HIS LAWYERS POINT BY POINT EXACTLY WHICH DOCUMENTS HE SAYS ARE SUBJECT TO EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE WITHIN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH.

WHICH DOCUMENTS ARE SUBJECT TO EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE FROM CLAIMS OUTSIDE OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH.

WHICH THINGS DO YOU SAY ARE PERSONAL.

THERE IS JUST NO ROOM TO HIDE.

AND ALL OF THIS NONSENSE THAT HE UTTERS TO SEAN HANNITY IS JUST GETTING HIM IN DEEPER AND DEEPER TROUBLE.

>> Braude: THERE WAS ONCE THE TWINKIE DEFENSE, NOW THE TELEPATHY DEFENSE.

STAYING ON THE SPECIAL MASTER, OR AS A SATIRIST THAT WE BOTH ADMIRE ANDY SAID SINCE TRUMP ISN'T SATISFIED WITH THE SPECIAL MASTER, HE WANTS AN EXTRA SPECIAL MASTER.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND, IF THE CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS ARE ESSENTIALLY SEGREGATED AS FOR THE APPELLATE DECISION, JUDGE, WHAT DOES IT MATTER WHAT HAPPENS IN FRONT OF THE SPECIAL MASTER GOING FORWARD?

>> YOU MEAN WITH RESPECT TO THE REST OF THE DOCUMENTS?

THE GOVERNMENT CAN MAKE ITS CASE ON THE CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS THAT THEY HAVE.

THEY HAVE-- AND WHAT THE JUDGE MADE IT CLEAR, IS THE TELEPATHY DEFENSE DOESN'T WORK.

AND NOW HE'S SAYING, NOW HE IS ESSENTIALLY SAYING TO TRUMP AND HIS ATTORNEYS, TO PUT UP A OR SHUT UP.

THEY HAD ALMOST 18 MONTH TO SAY HEY, THIS IS PERSONAL.

HEY, THIS ISN'T CLASSIFIED.

YOU KNOW, AND DIDN'T.

AND NOW THAT THEY CLAIM THEY DIDN'T WANT TO IDENTIFY ANY OF THAT BECAUSE IT COULD REVEAL THEIR DEFENSE AT TRIAL, THAT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY.

>> BUT LET ME JUST SAY TO GET SPECIFIC TO YOUR QUESTION.

SHE STILL HAS, JUDGE CANON HAS BEFORE HER THE POSSIBILITY THAT HE'S GOES TO SUBMIT TO THE JUDGE DEARY STATEMENTS THAT THE FOLLOWING CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS ARE ACTUALLY PROTECTED BY EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE LIKE THERE MIERT BE A NOTE ON SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT HIS LAWYERS ADVISED HIM.

I DOUBT IT BUT HE HAS THAT OPPORTUNITY.

HE ALSO HAS THE OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THAT SOME OF THE THINGS ARE, YOU KNOW, ATTORNEY CLIENT WORK PRODUCT.

ALL OF THAT STUFF.

HE MIGHT SAY THAT 18 OF THE 11,000 DOCUMENTS SHOULD NOT BE IN THIS PILE BUT THAT PILE.

BUT THE BOTTOMLINE IS THAT APART FROM HIS UNDERWEAR AND OTHER STUFF LIKE THAT THAT IS IN THERE, IN THE BOXES, APART FROM THAT IT'S ALL GOVERNMENT PROPERTY.

SO EVEN IF HE WINS VARIOUS CLAIMS, THEY DON'T-- THE DOCUMENTS DON'T GO BACK TO HIM.

THEY GO TO THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES.

SO IT IS REALLY A DISPUTE ABOUT WHETHER THINGS ARE GOING TO GO TO THE ARCHIVES OR TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

AND EVEN THOUSAND-- RESORTED TO SAYING THE ARCHIVES ARE IN THE TANK FOR THE BIED EPP ADMINISTRATION, WE CAN'T TRUST THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES.

THEY ARE A BUNCH OF LEFTIES.

HE THEN SAYS THE REASON THAT THE F.B.I.

WAS SO VIGOROUS IN GOING AFTER MAR-A-LAGO IS, LISTEN TO THIS, THEY WERE GOING AFTER HILARY CLINTON'S EMAILS.

THE EMAIL DEFENSE, IN ADDITION TO THE TELEPATHY DEFENSE.

SO REALLY PATHETIC.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW JUDGE, I WANT TO MOVE TO.

>> HE CAN TRY TO DO DELAY, IN OTHER WORDS THE JUDGE WILL FIND X OR Y AND HE COULD TRY TO APPEAL TO JUDGE CANON.

BUT WHAT IS INTERESTING ABOUT THE 11th CIRCUIT DEFENSE IS THAT I WOULD IMAGINE THAT WHEN SHE TOUCHES THE CASE AGAIN, SHE WILL BE CHASTENED.

BECAUSE THE 119 CIRCUIT SOUNDS, THERE ARE LEGAL ARGUMENTS TO BE ABSURD AND FACTUAL FINDINGS TO BE ABSURD.

>> JUST TODAY, TO REINFORCE, JUST TODAY ABOUT THREE CHEERS AGO, CHASTEN ISSUED A ONE-PAGE ORDER SAYING MY BAD.

SHE BASICALLY TOOK BACK THE STUFF THAT THE 11th CIRCUIT TOLD HER WAS WRONG.

>> Braude: COULD WE JUST SPEND A MINUTE ON LETICIA JAMES, STARTING WITH YOU.

I ASSUME MOST PEOPLE KNOW WHEN YOU TAKE A FIFTH AMENDMENT LIKE TRUMP AND ONE OF HIS SONS DID, HUNDREDS OF TIMES IN THIS INVESTIGATION, LEADING UP TO THE CIVIL LITIGATION YESTERDAY.

WHILE THAT KIND OF THING CAN'T BE USED AGAINST YOU IN A CRIMINAL TRIAL, IT CAN BE USED AGAINST YOU BY A JURY IN A CIVIL TRIAL.

YOU PRESIDED OVER MANY OF THOSE.

HOW POWERFUL IS IT TO HAVE THE STATE TELLING A JURY THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, THE FORMER PRESIDENT AND HIS KID DID TAKE THE FIFTH AMENDMENT HUNDREDS OF TIMES?

>> HUNDREDS, THE VIDEO OF HIM TAKING THE FIFTH OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN IS CHILLING.

I MEAN THERE IS NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT.

BY THE WAY, THE OTHER THING ABOUT THE CIVIL CASE IS THAT IT IS EASIER TO PROVE BECAUSE ONLY BY A PREPONDERANCE OF THE EVIDENCE.

WHICH IS MORE THAN 50%.

>> Braude: WELL, THAT IS WHY I WANTED TO ASK YOU LARRY TRIBE, SHE DID MAKE A CRIMINAL REFERRAL TO BOTH THE INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE AND THE U.S. ATTORNEY IN MANHATTAN.

YOU SAID YOU READ THE 200 PAIMGS SWI 200 PAGES MORE THAN I READ BUT BASED UPON YOUR READING, WITH THIS HIGHER STANDARD OF PROOF THAT IS REQUIRED IN A CRIMINAL PROCEEDING, SHE THINKS IT'S BEEN MET BASED UPON HER PRESS CONFERENCE YESTERDAY, DO YOU?

>> I DO.

I THINK THAT THE FEDERAL OFFENSES OF WIRE FRAUD AND OTHER FORMS OF FRAUD THAT HE COMMITTED, IN ORDER TO BASICALLY PROP UP HIS EMPIRE, ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE SERIOUS FEDERAL CRIMES AND THE EVIDENCE, WHETHER YOU USE A PREPONDERANCE STANDARD OR A REASONABLE DOUBT STANDARD THERE IS NO REASONABLE DOUBT THAT I CAN SEE.

AND ALL OF HIS ATTEMPTS TO RAISE DOUBTS BY, YOU KNOW, BY POSTINGS ON TRUTH SOCIAL, IRONICALLY NAMED, IS GOING TO WORK IN A CRIMINAL OR IN A CIVIL CASE.

>> Braude: I WAS NEVER A STUDENT OF YOURS IN A CLASSROOM.

I AM A STUDENT OF YOUR TWITTER FEED.

AND IF I WERE TO GUESS WHAT YOU WHAT YOU CONSIDER TO BE THE MOST SERIOUS CRIMINAL THREAT TO DONALD TRUMP, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT YOU HAVE CONCLUDED THAT THE ESPIONAGE CHARGE AROUND THE DOCUMENTS IS PRACTICALLY A SLAM DUNK.

WOULD I BE RIGHT IN THAT ANALYSIS?

>> YES, I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT.

DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE OTHERS AREN'T STRONG.

I THINK THAT THE FULTON COUNTY DVMENT AMOUNT OF HAS A VERY STRONG SET OF STATE CRIMINAL OFFENSES THAT SHE IS VERY LIKELY TO INDICT ON.

THEY ARE QUITE SPECIAL IN THE SENSE THAT NO FUTURE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES CAN PARDON HIM THERE.

THAT IS HE IS SORT OF COUNTING ON DRAGGING THINGS OUT SO THAT THE FEDERAL PROSECUTIONS ARE GOING TO GO AWAY.

HE COULDN'T, THEY WON'T HAVE BEEN FULLY FINISHED BY THE TIME EITHER HE OR DESANTIS OR ONE OF HIS OTHER ACOLYTES SNEAKS THEIR WAY INTO THE OVAL OFFICE.

BUT EVEN IF THAT IS TRUE AND EVEN IF THEY GET A-- THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, LETICIA JAMES IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE AND HER SUCCESSOR IN FULTON COUNTY IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE SO HE, I THINK, FACES JAIL TIME ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

AND HE'S NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET OUT OF IT, EVEN IF THE REPUBLICANS WIN THE MID TERM, WHICH THEY MAY NOT.

AND EVEN IF THEY TAKE THEñOe PRESIDENCY IN 2024 WHICH THEY MAY NOT.

>> I WANT TO ASK JUDGE GERTNER IN FULTON COUNTY BUT BEFORE I DO HE FACES JAIL TIME.

DOES THAT MEAN THAT HE IS CONVICTED IN YOUR MIND AND WOULD FACE JAIL TIME.

DOES THAT ALSO MEAN YOU CAN ENVISION A JUDGE SENTENCING A FORMER PRESIDENT TO JAIL TIME?

>> I MEAN-- WAIT, LARRY TRIBE MENTIONEDxD IT.

WHAT IS THE ANSWER TO THAT, LARRY?

>> I THINK, YES, IT DEPENDS ON THE JUDGE OF COURSE.

SOME JUDGES LIKE JUDGE CANON IN THE TANK WOULD GIVE HIM A GOLD STAR RATHER THAN JAIL TIME.

THE OTHER.

>> WELL, I THINK IT WILL BE HARD.

I MEAN IF IT IS ONLY THE CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS ISSUE, I THINK IT'S HARD.

>> WHY DO YOU SAY ONLY.

THESE ARE NATIONAL SECURITY DEFENSE.

>> I KNOW BUT IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT PEOPLE HAVE GOTTEN FOR THOSE CHARGES, NOW NOTHING THERE IS NOTHING COMPARABLE, YOU KNOW.

AND IT HAS BEEN USUALLY A BONGS OR TWO, I SHARED IT WITH MY GIRLFRIEND.

SO THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A CASE OF THIS MANY OVER A SUSTAINED PERIOD OF TIME WITHOUT AN EXCUSE.

BUT I WOULD SAY THAT YOU KNOW, ANY JUDGE WOULD LOOK AT THIS DIFFERENTLY THAN IT LOOKS AT EVERY OTHER CASE.

WHEN THE STUFF CAME UP WITH JUDGE CANON, I COULD SEE ANY JUDGE, EVEN ONE IN THE TANK, GRANDING A SPECIAL MASTER BUT NARROWING THE REVIEW TO ATTORNEY CLIENT PRIVILEGE, TAKE A LOOK AT THAT AGAIN.

SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT A JUDGE WOULD DO IN THIS SITUATION.

>> I THINK ARE GOING SOFT, NANCY, I DIDN'T GET IT.

>> I AM SUPPOSED TO BE A SOFTIE BUT MY GOD, WHEN JUDGE CANON SAID THAT HE'S THE PRESIDENT AND THAT MAKES HIM SPECIAL, ONE OF THE COOL THINGS IS THE 11th CIRCUIT SIDE NO.

A FORMER PRESIDENT IS NOT DIFFERENT IN THAT WAY.

AND ALTHOUGH HE'S TRYING TO GIN UP THE IDEA THAT THERE WILL BE BLOOD IN THE STREETS IF YOU GO AFTER ME, I THINK HE'S JUST DARING THE LEGAL SYSTEM TO PROVE THAT IT REALLY CAN STAND UP TO HIM.

AND I AM HOPING.

>> I DON'T DIS-- DISAGREE, I THINK THAT THE CLASSIFIED INFORMATION STUFF IS A SLAM DUNK BECAUSE THERE IS NO EXPLANATION, NO EXCUSE AND HE HAD MULTIPLE OPPORTUNITIES TO RETURN IT.

THE QUESTION IS WHAT TO DO WITH THE CONVICTION.

>> Braude: IF I MAY BE THE THIRD MAN IN HERE.

YOU MENTIONED THE FULTON COUNTY PROSECUTION.

HERE IS FANNY WILLIS, THE PROSECUTOR THERE, THIS IS ON SEPTEMBER 159.

THE ALLEGATIONS ARE VERY SERIOUS.

SHE DOESN'T MENTION TRUM IN PARTICULAR, IF INVITED AND CONVICT HE IS FACING PRISON SENTENCE.

I HAVE TO SAY BUT SOMEONE WHO LISTENED TO TO THAT CALL BY PRESIDENT AND THE-- OF GEORGIA, I HAVE NEVER HEARD A CLEARER AND MORE DIRECT EFFORT TO OVERTURN AN ELECTION AT ANY LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT.

AND IT SEEMS TO ME, AGAIN, AS THE THIRD PERSON IN, THAT MIGHT LEAD TO PRISON TIME.

CAN WE STAY ON THE FEDS THOUGH FOR A SECOND, LAR'S TRIBE, FIRST WITH YOU.

THERE IS THIS INFORM 60 DAY RULE, WE'RE WITHIN THE 60 DAYS NOW.

THE THEORY BEING AND I WILL CHARACTERIZE IT AS BEST I CAN, THAT WE ARE NOT GOING TO PROSECUTE ANYBODY, GO AGAINST ANYBODY THAT CLOSE TO AN ELECTION SO IT IS NOT SEEN AS EFFECTING AN OUTCOME OF AN ELECTION.

OBVIOUSLY HILARY CLINTON IS PROBABLY PAYING ATTENTION TO THAT.

SO ASSUMING MERRICK GARLAND, YOUR FORMER STUDENT ADHERES TO THAT, THE ELECTION IS OVER.

THE NEXT DAY THE TARGET OF THESE INVESTIGATIONS ANNOUNCES HE'S RUNNING FOR THE PRESIDENCY OF THE UNITED STATES.

IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT A FAR MORE SERIOUS CONUNDRUM FOR MERRICK GARLAND THAN 60 DAYS UP TO AN ELECTION, IS INDICTING A GUY WHO JUST ANNOUNCED HE IS RUNNING FOR A SECOND TERM AS PRESIDENT.

AM I WRONG?

>> WELL, I DON'TfáNB THINK ARE YOU WRONG IN GENERAL.

BUT I THINK YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT MERRICK GARLAND.

HE IS A NO NONSENSE GUY.

HE MADE A SPEECH, SEVERAL, BUT IN ONE OF HIS SPEECHES HE MADE VERY CLEAR THAT HE JUST DOESN'T THINK IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE WHETHER SOMEBODY IS RUNNING OR NOT RUNNING FOR THE PRESIDENCY.

ALL CITIZENS, ALL CIVILIANS ARE THE SAME.

IN TERMS OF THE LAW.

THAT IS THE THING THAT HE BELIEVES WITH ALL HIS SOUL.

HE TEARS UP WHEN HE TALKS ABOUT HIS FAMILIES ESCAPED FROM THE HOLOCAUST AND WHAT HE LOVES ABOUT THIS COUNTRY.

HE LOVES THE RULE OF LAW.

AND THAT MEANS THAT ALL OF THESE DRAFTS AND ALL OF THE HAND-WRINGING ABOUT HOW EXTRAORDINARY IT WOULD BE TO IMPRISON OR SENTENCE A FORMER PRESIDENT IS JUST NOT GOING TO DETAIN HIM AND HE'S CERTAINLY NOT GOING TO BE DETAINED BY THE MAN I LA TIFF ABILITY OF DONALD TRUMP TO PICK HIS MOMENT FOR ANNOUNCING WHEN HE ASK RUNNING FOR THE PRESIDENCY AND THEN SAY GOTCHA.

YOU CAN'T GO AFTER ME NOW.

MERRICK WILL NOT FALL FOR THAT.

>> Braude: NANCY GERTNER, CAN I RETURN TO THE LITTLE DISPUTE YOU AND LARRY TRIBE HAD A MINUTE AGO.

LET'S ASSUME YOU ARE THE JUDGE IN EVERY ONE OF THESE POTENTIAL CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS.

AND THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IS FOUND GUILTY IN EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

CAN YOU IMAGINE NOT SENTENCING HIM?

>> NO, YOU'RE RIGHT.

I MEAN I CAN'T IMAGINE NOT SENTENCING HIM TO TIME.

THE QUESTION IS HOW MUCH.

IF YOU LOOK AT EACH CASE IN ISOLATION, THAT COMES TO ONE CONCLUSION.

BUT IF YOU LINK IT TO THE WIDER STORY AND IF FOR EXAMPLE ANY.

DOCUMENTS ARE TIED INTO THE WIDER FALSE ELECTOR STORY, IT IS BETTER THEN, THAT WOULD BE, I MEAN YOU'RE RIGHT T REALLY IS JUST DEPENDING WHAT THE PILE IS GOING TO LOOK LIKE, I THINK IT IS AN ILLUSION.

I THINK MERRICK GARLAND IS GOING TO INDICT.

I HAVE NO QUESTION, NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT, I THINK IT IS PARTICULAR LEAVE IN THE RECORD CASE, HE WILL BE-- TRUMP IS GOING TO BE CONVICTED.

I THINK THE ONLY QUESTION WILL BE WHAT A JUDGE DOES AT SENTENCING AND WHAT THE PILOT LOOKS LIKE THAT IS REALLY THE ONLY ISSUE.

>> Braude: LARRY TRIBE, CAN YOU EXPLAIN SOMETHING TO ME ALSO, I DIDN'T KNOW UNTIL THE JANUARY 6th HEARINGS ABOUT THE PROVISION IN THE 14th AMENDMENT OF BARRING SOMEONE FROM FEDERAL OFFICE.

LET ME READ A PIECE.

NO PERSON SHALL HOLD ANY OFFICE CIVIL AND MILITARY IN THE U.

WHO ENGAIN I BELIEVED Ir UNDERSTAND IF HE IS CONVICTED RELATED TO JANUARY 6th HE WOULD BE BARD UNDER THIS PROVIFTION THE 14th AMENDMENT, FIRST OF ALL, AM I RIGHT.

AND SECONDSLY WHAT OTHER CRIMINAL CONVICTION IS POTENTIALLY ON THE TABLE MIGHT LEAD TO A BARRING DONALD TRUMP FROM SEEKING THE PRESIDENCY AGAIN, ANY?

PROBABLY NOT, I THINK STOANL THAT ONE, ALTHOUGH THERE ARE OTHER STATUTE, CONVICTIONS UNDER WHICH WOULD LEAD TO DISQUALIFICATION.

BUT THE CONSTITUTIONALITY OF THOSE IS AT LEAST OPEN TO ARGUABLE CHALLENGE.

YOU CAN'T CHALLENGE THE CONSTITUTIONALITY OF SECTION 3 OF THE 14th AMENDMENT T IS PART OF THE CONSTITUTION.

AND ONLY A FEW DAYS AGO VERY COURAGEOUS JUDGE IN NEW MEXICO DECIDED TO REMOVE A COUNTY COMMISSIONER FROM OFFICE BECAUSE HE WAS GUILTY OF INVOLVEMENT IN THE INSURRECTION ON JANUARY 6th.

HE WAS IN FACT NOT CONVICTED OF INSURANCE RECTION, HE WAS CONVICTED BASICALLY OF TRESPASS.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE CONVICTED CRIMINALLY IN ORDER TO BE FOUND BY A JUDGE, PROBABLY BY A PREPONDERANCE OF THE EVIDENCE, TO HAVE BEEN AN INSURRECTIONIST WHO THEN CANNOT UNDER THE CONSTITUTION HOLD ANY OFFICE UNDER THE UNITED STATES.

>> Braude: IS THAT A SEPARATE PROCEEDING WITH A DIFFERENT STANDARD OF PROOF?

MEANING-- WHAT WHAT'S THAT?

>> IT'S NOT CLEAR.

AS SOME PEOPLE HAVE ARGUED, THAT LANGUAGE IN THE 14th AMENDMENT IS SELF-EXECUTING.

BUT I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS.

I MEAN YOU CAN'T JUST SAY TRUMP FOAMENTED THE INSURRECTION, THEREFORE HE CAN'T RUN.

SOMEBODY WITH COMPETENT JURISDICTION HAS TO MAKE A DETERMINATION THAT HE DID THAT.

NOW THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ALREADY IN IMPEACHING HIM MADE THAT DETERMINATION.

I DON'T THINK THAT IS GOING TO BE ENOUGH.

I THINK WE NEED SOMEONE LIKE NAPSEE GERTNER, A SITTING JUDGE TO DECIDE BY A PREPONDERANCE OF THE EVIDENCE THAT HE PROBABLY WAS INVOLVED IN GIVING AID AND COMFORT TO, OR DIRECTLY FOAMENTS THE INSURRECTION.

AND I THINK AT THAT POINT, THAT PART OF THE 14th AMENDMENT WILL KICK IN.

THERE IS A PROCEDURE NOW-- PROCEEDING NOW CHALLENGING THAT RULING BY THE COUNTY, BY THE DISTRICT JUDGE IN NEW MEXICO.

IT IS GOING STRAIGHT TO THE NEW MEXICO SUPREME COURT.

I LOOKED AT THAT, THERE ARE FIVE JUDGES THERE, THAT ARE VERY SOLID, SERIOUS JUDGES.

I THINK THEY MAY WELL AFFIRM HIS EXCLUSION UNDER THAT CLAUSE.

>> CAN WE END WITH A NONLEGAL REACTION TO BOTH OF YOU?

SPEAKING OF AID AND COMFORT, THE PRESIDENT GIVE EPP AID AND COMFORT IN ANOTHER SETTING TO Q-ANON AND FOR PEOPLE AT HOME WHO DON'T KNOW ABOUT Q-ANON, IT SAN ORGANIZATION THAT BELIEVES SOME SATANIC BUNCH OF PEDOPHILES IS LEADING THE UNITED STATES.

I WILL SHOW YOU WHAT DONALD TRUMP RETRUTHED, I GUESS IS THE BIRD ON TRUTH SOCIAL, AS YOU CAN SEE THERE ON HIS LAPEL HE IS WEARING A Q, THE SYMBOL FOR Q-ANON.

THE STORM IS COMING IS THEIR LINE.

AND FOR THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW, THE STORM IS TRUMP'S FINAL VICTORY WHEN HIS OPPONENTS ARE TRIED AND POTENTIALLY EXECUTED ON LIVE TV.

STARTING WITH YOU, JUDGE GERTNER, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THIS IS SORT OF THE LEADUP TO JANUARY 7th, THE SEQUEL.

THAT HE IS BASICALLY PREPARING HIS PEOPLE, THE Q-ANON PEOPLE AND OTHERS LIKE-MINDED PEOPLE FOR HIM TO BE INDICTED, CHARGED, WHATEVER.

AND TO DO HOPEFULLY ON HIS PERSPECTIVE ON A GRANDER SCALE WHAT THEY DID ON JANUARY 6th.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THAT.

>> I DIDN'T SEE THAT PARTICULAR POSTING.

I SAW THE SALUTE.

>> Braude: AT THE RALLY.

>> AT THE RALLY THAT HE GAVE WHICH ARE CHILLING, HORRIFYING.

I MEAN THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT HIS TO HIS CORE BASE THIS LOOKS LIKE UNSOLICITED ATTACKS ON THEIR FORMER PRESIDENT.

AND AS OPPOSED TO, AS YOU DESCRIBED IT, THE WALL IS CLOSING IN ON HIM, FINALLY.

BUT I MEAN IT'S CHILLING.

IT'S ABSOLUTELY CHILLING.

I THINK THE MOST STUNNING ISSUE IS WHY WE HEAR NOW THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, SOME MEMBERS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ARE TILTING AWAY SO AS NOT TO BE ALIGNED WITH HIM.

BUT NOT ENOUGH IN TO MY TASTE.

>> Braude: LAURENCE TRIBE, IT WAS A CALL TO ACTION IN MY CASE, AM I WRONG.

>> NO, I THINK IT IS WORSE THAN CHILLING.

QUITE APART FROM THE BASICALLY HITLER SALUTES THAT WE WERE WATCHING IN RESPONSE, HE WAS USING THE DIRECT LANGUAGE OF GO GET THEM.

HE WAS BASICALLY SAYING IF THEY COME AFTER ME, YOU GO AFTER THEM.

AND I WANT TO YOU DO IT VIGOROUSLY AND VIOLENTLY.

HE ASK RIGHT NOW GIVING AID AND COMFORT TO ANOTHER INSURRECTION.

IS HE DISQUALIFYING HIMSELF UNDER SIKSZ 36 THE 14th AMENDMENT.

IT IS NOT SELF-EXECUTING BUT ANY JUDGE WITH ANY INTEGRITY WOULD FIND THAT WHAT HE IS DOING DISQUALIFIES HIM FROM EVER BEING PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OR HOLDING ANY OFFICE, DOG CATCHER ON UP.

>> Braude: LET ME THANK ONE GUJ WITH A LOT OF INTEGRITY, NANCY GERTNER, LARRY TRIBE, YOU AS WELL, AS ALWAYS I APPRECIATE YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

PLEASE COME BACK TOMORROW FOR TALKING POLITICS.

THE ORANGE LINE IS BACK UP AND RUNNING BUT THE T'S TROUBLES DON'T END THERE.

NEAR GOVERNOR BAKER NOR THE LEGISLATURE EVER SEEM TO TAKE A POLITICAL HIT FOR THEM.

WHY?

ADAM REIMY AND HIS PANEL WILL DIG INTO THAT.

PLUS THE GOVERNOR ON IMMIGRATION, GEF DIEHL AND ELECTION DENIALISM AND MORE TOMORROW AT 7:00.

I'LL BE BACK NEXT WEEK.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND PLEASE DON'T FORGET UKRAINE.

66 >> Hey, folks!

Edgar B. Herwick III Here, from GBH's "Curiosity Desk," Where you ask questions, And I find answers.

Today, how did this 12-foot bronze pear End up at one of Dorchester's Busiest intersections?

If there are two things you Cannot spit without hitting In this town, it's a Dunkin' Donuts, and a historic statue.

Now, most of them are pretty by-the-book: Paul Revere atop his Horse in the North End.

Martyr for religious freedom, Mary Dyer, Sitting contemplatively Outside the State House.

Celtics coach Red Auerbach Chomping on a cigar, On a bench in Quincy Market.

But, artist Laura Baring-Gould Had a completely different Kind of statue in mind for This spot in Dorchester, Boston's most diverse neighborhood-- An enormous pear.

>> Doing Public art is always a tricky Endeavor, because, who's the public?

What's the public?

>> Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you a small, Randomly-selected, Non-statistically significant Sample of the public.

>> Do you have a theory As to why they put a giant pear here?

>> There's a book called "James and the Giant Peach," And the mayor, in 1963, read the book, And decided to one-up it.

>> I don't know, it's doing its job.

It's doing its job.

>> I pass by with my granddaughter, And she has asked me about this pear, And I don't have an answer.

I say, "I don't know what does that mean."

I would like to know, what is that?

>> Are you going to tell me Why we have it here now?

>> Pears were once grown in abundance here, And one variety was actually created here, By a guy named Thaddeus Clapp.

Now, he took a Bartlett Pear, and crossed it With a Flemish Beauty to Create a brand-new pear, Unique to Dorchester.

The variety was aptly Named Clapp's Favorite.

>> But that's not the only reason For this enormous fruit.

Baring-Gould settled on this pear idea After months of research And countless conversations with people All around the neighborhood, That revealed a rich Agricultural heritage here, That cuts across culture, class, and time.

>> I see In the Vietnamese communities, People growing cucumbers in their gardens.

And then, as you cross over, The Cape Verdean communities, People are growing beans.

>> She also learned About the neighborhood's 17th century farms, its 19th century orchards, And saw tons of 20th century photos Of kids playing in front-yard fruit trees.

>> And it could also be this Unlikely symbol-- What's a pear doing in Dorchester?

Why a pear?

>> Around the pear Are ten smaller sculptures, Honoring Dorchester's unique history Through everyday objects.

There's the three sisters Crops: squash, corn, and beans, Vital to the area's indigenous people.

There's dog tags, honoring local veterans, A triple-Decker house, and more.

But it is the pear that Looms largest here.

Baring-Gould sees it as a Fitting metaphor for Dorchester-- A sweet, tough-skinned, hybrid fruit, Something wholly new, only made possible By cross-pollination.

>> Thank God!

Now I know what I'm going to Say to my granddaughter.

>> So, there you have it.

Don't forget to like and subscribe-- And perhaps most importantly, Let me know what you are curious about.

Because, hey, I might Just look into it for you.

I'm Edgar B. Herwick III.

Stay curious out there.

Pretty good!