>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," CONVICTIONS FOR THE THREE MEN WHO MURDERED AHMAUD ARBERY AND A RULING AGAINST NEO-NAZIS IN CHARLOTTESVILLE.

PLUS, KYLE RITTENHOUSE GETTING TO WALK FREE.

WHAT DO THESE CASES TELL US ABOUT AMERICA'S SO-CALLED "RACIAL RECKONING?"

ATTORNEY RON SULLIVAN AND THE "BOSTON GLOBE'S" RENEÉE GRAHAM JOIN ME TO DISCUSS.

PLUS, REMEMBERING PHIL SAVIANO.

THE MAN WHO REFUSED TO STAY SILENT ABOUT HIS OWN SEXUAL ABUSE IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, WHO HELPED DRIVE THE NOW FAMOUS "SPOTLIGHT" INVESTIGATION AND WHOSE COURAGE INSPIRED MANY MORE SURVIVORS TO COME FORWARD.

THEN, LATER, THE "BOSTON GLOBE'S" DAN SHAUGHNESSY JOINS ME ON HIS NEW BOOK ABOUT LIFE COVERING THE CELTICS IN THE 80s, AS UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL AS IT GETS.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> Braude: IT TOOK TWO-PLUS MONTHS AFTER THE MURDER OF AHMAUD ARBERY FOR POLICE TO ARREST THE MEN RESPONSIBLE.

74 DAYS.

NOT BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHO THEY WERE OR WHERE TO FIND THEM, BUT BECAUSE LOCAL OFFICIALS IN GEORGIA REPEATEDLY TOLD OFFICERS NOT TO GO AFTER THEM.

THAT WAS, UNTIL A VIDEO OF THE ATTACK WAS POSTED ONLINE.

AND NOW, WELL OVER A YEAR-AND-A HALF LATER, ALL THREE WHITE VIGILANTES WHO CHASED HIM DOWN HAVE BEEN CONVICTED OF HIS MURDER, FACING UP TO LIFE IN PRISON WITH NO PAROLE.

>> THIS IS THE SECOND THANKSGIVING THAT MY FAMILY AND I WOULD SHARE WITHOUT AHMAUD, BUT THIS IS THE FIRST THANKSGIVING THAT WE CAN LOOK AT THAT EMPTY CHAIR AND SAY, WE FINALLY GOT JUSTICE FOR YOU.

>> IT WON'T BRING AHMAUD BACK, BUT WE KNOW THOSE GUYS BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE LYNCHING THAT THEY DONE TO HIM.

>> Braude: THE THREE ARE ALSO EXPECTED TO STAND TRIAL ON FEDERAL HATE CRIME CHARGES IN FEBRUARY.

AND ON THE SAME DAY THAT VERDICT CAME, THE THEN-D.A.

WHO FIRST HELPED SHIELD THEM TURNED HERSELF INTO POLICE.

JACKIE JOHNSON WAS INDICTED LAST MONTH FOR OBSTRUCTING POLICE AND "SHOWING FAVOR AND AFFECTION" TO THE KILLERS, ONE OF WHOM WAS A FORMER POLICE OFFICER SHE WORKED WITH AS D.A.

AND IN ANOTHER CASE OF VIOLENCE INSPIRED BY HATE, THIS ONE, FROM THE 2017 "UNITE THE RIGHT" RALLY IN CHARLOTTESVILLE, VIRGINIA, A JURY HAS FOUND JAMES FIELDS--THE WHITE SUPREMACIST WHO DROVE HIS CAR INTO THE CROWD, KILLING 32-YEAR-OLD HEATHER HEYER-- WAS LIABLE FOR MORE THAN $25 MILLION IN DAMAGES, ALONG WITH SEVERAL FELLOW WHITE SUPREMACISTS WHO ORGANIZED THAT EVENT.

FIELDS WAS ALREADY CONVICTED OF MURDER AND SENTENCED TO LIFE BEHIND BARS.

OF COURSE, BOTH OF THOSE DECISIONS CAME JUST DAYS AFTER KYLE RITTENHOUSE WAS SPARED ANY ACCOUNTABILITY FOR SHOOTING AND KILLING TWO PEOPLE AND WOUNDING A THIRD AT A BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTEST IN KENOSHA, WISCONSIN LAST YEAR.

SO IS THERE A BROADER MESSAGE FROM THESE CASES THAN THE VERDICTS THEMSELVES?

JOINING ME TO DISCUSS ARE RON SULLIVAN, HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR AND DIRECTOR OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE INSTITUTE AT HARVARD, WHO HELPED THE FAMILY OF MICHAEL BROWN WIN A $1.5 MILLION SETTLEMENT FROM THE CITY OF FERGUSON, MISSOURI, AND "BOSTON GLOBE" COLUMNIST AND ASSOCIATE EDITOR RENEÉE GRAHAM.

RENEE AND RONL THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: RENEE IF I CAN START WITH YOU, DOES THE CONVICTION THE TWO McMICHAELS AND BRYAN HAVE ANY EFFECT ON THE FAMILY AND FRIENDS OF AHMAUD ARBERY?

>> IT IS AN IMPORTANT VERDICT, BUT IT IS ONLY ONE VERDICT IN ONE CASE.

IT IS NOT A RECKONING.

I THINK WE SHOULD RETIRE THAT WORD FOREVER.

THE FACT THAT IT WAS IN DOUBT, NO.

JUDGE ANNOUNCE THEY'D McMICHAELS AND BRIAN WERE FOUND GUILTY, AS YOUD, IT TOOK 74 DAYS BEFORE THE McMICHAELS WERE CHARGED WITH MURDER AND IF IT WERE NOT FOR THAT TAPE THERE PROBABLY WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN A TRIAL WHATEVER.

>> Braude: WHAT RENEE IS DESCRIBING IS THE CONSENSUS I HEARD BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, IF ONE BELIEVES THE ACQUITTAL FOR KYLE RITTENHOUSE WAS A WIN FOR VIGILANT ISM, BUT DOES IT?

>> WELL, THAT'S THE IMPORTANTLY QUESTION.

AND I AGREE WITH THE PREEX SPEAKER, SO IT IS A WIN.

BUT I THINK WE HAVE TO VIEW IT IN MODERATION.

YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT -- DOESN'T REPRESENT A SYSTEMIC CHANGE BUT TO SAY THERE'S NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EMMETT TILL AND NOW WOULD BE UNTRUE, IT WOULD BE TO DISREGARD HISTORY.

SO WE NOW HAVE AN EXAMPLE OF WHITE JURY, PREDOMINANTLY WHITE JURY IN A SOUTHERN STATE CONVICTING WHITE PEOPLE FOR KILLING BLACK PEOPLE.

THAT WAS UNTHINKABLE YEARS AGO, AND I LIKE MANY WAS UNSURE IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN THIS TIME.

BUT IT IS A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

BUT WE DO HAVE TO REMAIN VIGILANT, BECAUSE THE SYSTEM AS A WHOLE STILL IS DEEPLY FLAWED AND PROBLEMATIC.

>> Braude: I MENTIONED THE RITTENHOUSE CASE.

RENEE, YOU WROTE, IF RITTENHOUSE WERE BLACK, HIS TEARS WOULD HAVE GOTTEN HIM NOWHERE.

YOU WROTE, HE SURELY WOULD HAVE BEEN CONVICTED STARTING WITH YOU RONL, WHY DID YOU SAY THAT?

>> I SAY THAT BECAUSE I BELIEVE THE JURY WOULD HAVE VIEWED THE DISCRETIONARY ELEMENTS QUITE DIFFERENTLY THAN IT DID IF THE DEFENDANT HAD BEEN BLACK.

SO ONE THING THE JURY RITTENHOUSE HAD TO DECIDE WAS WHETHER HIS USE OF FORCE WAS REASONABILITY IN LIGHT OF ALL -- REASONABLE IN LIGHT OF ALL THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

I BELIEVE BASED ON THE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY THAT IF A BLACK PERSON HAD RIFLED DOWN BLACK PEOPLE, THEY WOULD HAVE HAD QUESTIONS AS TO WHETHER THAT WAS A REASONABLE USE OF FORCE.

THE SECOND BIG QUESTION WAS WHETHER IT WAS A PROVOCATION.

BOTH OF THOSE WERE RESOLVED IN FAVOR OF RITTENHOUSE AND REASONABLY SO I THINK GIVEN EVIDENCE.

I THINK IT WOULD HAVE GONE IN THE OTHER DIRECTION HAD THE DEFENDANT BEEN BLACK.

>> Braude: RENEE, IF RITTENHOUSE HAD BEEN BLACK, WHY WOULD HIS TEARS HAVE GOTTEN HIM NOWHERE?

>> I DON'T THINK THIS COUNTRY IS EMPATHETIC TO BLACK PEOPLE.

HE WOULDN'T HAVE HAD TO GET OUT OF KENOSHA THAT NIGHT, WOE HAVE BEEN SHOT DEAD IN THE STREET.

IT'S THE NATURE OF THE WAY THINGS WERE.

THE WAY THE TRIAL WENT WITH RITTENHOUSE, THERE WAS AN ATTEMPT MADE CONSTANTLY ON THE PART OF HIS DEFENSE TEAM TO INFANTILIZE HIM.

HE WAS A KID, 17-YEAR-OLD BOY.

NO 17-YEAR-OLD BLACK CHILD IS EVER TREAT THEY'D WAY.

TRAYVON MARTIN WAS 17 YEARS OLD.

WHAT DID GEORGE ZIMMERMAN'S FAMILY SAY ABOUT HIM?

I THOUGHT HE WAS ABOUT MY AGE, 30 YEARS OLD.

RADIO JURY WOULDN'T HAVE LOOKED AT A 17-YEAR-OLD CHILD AND BELIEVED HIS TEARS OR BLEACHED HE WAS A BOY WHO HAD MADE A MISTAKE.

>> Braude: RENEE DO YOU BELIEVE IF HE HAD BEEN BLACK HE WOULD HAVE BEEN WICKETTED?

>> ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT, IF HE HAD SURVIVED TO GET TO A TRIAL.

>> Braude: YOU ALSO WROTE IN THE SAME PIECE RON ASSUMING THE BLACK DEFENDANT WOULD HAVE BEEN GUILTY, WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT THE RITTENHOUSE VERDICT, THAT IT'S TOTALLY A FUNCTION OF THE COLOR OF HIS SKIN?

>> NO, THAT'S NOT THE POINT I WAS DRIVING AT.

I BELIEVE WHOLE HEARTED REPLY AND I BELIEVE THAT CHUNKS OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY BELIEVE THAT AS WELL.

I DON'T THINK WE TAKE THAT TO SAY THAT RITTENHOUSE SHOULD RECEIVE LESS JUSTICE.

THAT WAS NOT A GREAT CASE FOR THE GOVERNMENT.

THE REASON IT WASN'T A GREAT CASE FOR THE GOVERNMENT IS BECAUSE WISCONSIN HAD A SET OF LAWS THAT PERMITS A 17-YEAR-OLD TO PARADE AROUND WITH A SEMI AUTOMATIC RIFLE LAWFULLY.

THAT TO ME IS THE BIG PROBLEM HERE.

I THINK THE JURY, I THINK THAT THAT WAS A SELF-DEFENSE CASE GIVEN LAW OF WISCONSIN AND GIVEN THEIR OPEN CARRY LAWS.

BUT WE SHOULDN'T SAY HEY BECAUSE A BLACK PERSON WOULD HAVE BEEN QUIRKTED, LET'S CONVICT RITTENHOUSE TOO.

NO, WHAT WE SHOULD INSIST ON IS EACH AND EVERY DEFENDANT BE TREATED LIKE RITTENHOUSE, NOT THAT RITTENHOUSE BE TREATED LIKE POOR BLACK DEFENDANT.

I THINK LEVEL UP NOT LEVEL DOWN IS THE POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE WITH THAT.

>> Braude: I UNDERSTAND.

CAN WE DO MORE WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED, LET'S RETURN TO THE McMICHAELS AND BRIAN, THERE WAS A PRETTY CRITICAL MOMENT DURING THE CROSS EXAMINATION OF TRAVIS McMICHAELS HIMSELF.

I'M SURE PEOPLE HAVE SEEN IT BUT I WANT TO SHOW IT AGAIN.

>> AND AT THIS POINT IN TIME, WHEN YOU FIRST SEE HIM ON, HE'S NOT REACHING INTO HIS POCKETS?

>> NOT-- NO MA'AM.

NOT RUNNING, NO MA'AM.

>> AND HE NEVER YELLED AT YOU GUYS?

>> NO MA'AM.

>> NEVER THREATENED YOU AT ALL?

>> NO MA'AM, NOT VERB-- >> NEVER BRANDISHED ANY WEAPONS?

>> LET HIM FINISH HIS ANSWER.

>> YEAH, HE DID NOT THREATEN ME VERBALLY.

NO MA'AM.

>> ALL RIGHT, DIDN'T BRANDISH ANY WEAPONS?

>> UH, NO MA'AM.

>> DIDN'T PULL OUT ANY GUNS?

>> NO MA'AM.

>> DIDN'T PULL OUT ANY KNIFE?

>> NO MA'AM.

>> NEVER REACHED FOR ANYTHING, DID HE?

>> UH, NO.

>> HE JUST RAN?

>> YES, HE WAS JUST RUNNING.

>> Braude: RON SULLIVAN AS A BIG CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AS QUICK AS THE VERDICT WAS, FOUR HOURS THE JURY WAS OUT, WITHOUT AN THAT INCREDIBLE CROSS-EXAMINATION, WAS IT CREDIBLE FOR YOU THAT HE WOULD HAVE BEEN CONVICTED OF MURDER WP.

>> IT'S PRETTY CLEAR TO ME WITHOUT THE VIDEOTAPE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A REALLY TOUGH ROAD FOR THEM TO GET A CONVICTION.

SO THE VIDEOTAPE LIMITS WHAT THEY COULD SAY BECAUSE IT'S RIGHT THERE ON TAPE.

WHAT WAS MOST DISGUSTING TO ME ABOUT THAT IS THEY WERE EVEN ALLOWED TO OFFER THE DEFENSE.

YOU KNOW JIM YOU REMEMBER THE BURDEN OF PERSUASION FROM LOOM, YOU GOT TO REACH A CERTAIN LEVEL TO EVEN PUT A DEFENSE ON.

LISTEN TO THAT CROSS-EXAMINATION, HOW CAN YOU EVEN CLAIM SELF DEFENSE GIVEN FACTS FROM THE DEFENDANTS THEMSELVES.

>> Braude: RENEE WE STARTED THIS DISCUSSION BY ME ASKING WHAT YOU YOU THOUGHT THE IMPACT OF THE CONVICTION OF THE MICK MICHAELS AND BRIAN WAS, BEYOND THE MURDER OF ARBERY HIMSELF, MY TAKE OF THE MOST SIGNIFICANT AND POTENTIALLY FARTHEST REACHING IMPACT WAS NEITHER OF THE CRIMINAL TRIALS BUT THE CIVIL TRIAL OF THE CHARLOTTESVILLE, VIRGINIA, UNITE THE RIGHT TRIAL, $25 MILLION.

AM I RIGHT THAT WHEN THAT SORT OF PAIN VISITED ON PEOPLE WHO INCITE SUCH THINGS THAT IT WILL CAUSE OTHERS TO THINK TWICE BEFORE THEY DO THE SAME THING?

>> I THINK IF I CAUSE A FEW PEOPLE TO THINK TWICE I DON'T KNOW THAT IT WILL HAVE THE KIND OF BLANKET EFFECT YOU MIGHT THINK THAT A $26 MILLION SETTLEMENT MIGHT HAVE ON PEOPLE'S CONSCIOUSNESS.

I THINK THERE IS A SENSE THAT WELL THE McMICHAELS ARE GOING TO GO AWAY AND BRIAN IS GOING TO GO AWAY, THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN TO MOW.

I THINK PEOPLE DRIVEN BY THESE WHITE PREM CYST SUPREMACIST MOTIVES ARE NOT GOING TO BE DETERRED.

>> THIS IS A PLAY RIGHT OUT OF THE BOOKS OF MORRIS DEES AND THE SOUTHERN CENTER.

ONE BY ONE BANKRUPT SPECIFIC ORGANIZATIONS SO THAT THOSE SPECIFIC ORGANIZATIONS AND INDIVIDUALS CAN NO LONGER DO HARM.

PEOPLE WITH SUCH MALICE IN THEIR HEARTS, NO, I DON'T THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE YOU KNOW, THEY'RE NOT THINKING LIKE OH I'M AFRAID OF GETTING SUED BUT SUE EACH OF THEM INDIVIDUALLY, GET THESE BIG VERDICTS AND ONE BY ONE REDUCE THE NUMBER OF HATE GROUPS IN THE COUNTRY.

>> Braude: RENEE IF IT'S NOT GOING TO HAVE THE KIND OF IMPACT THAT I HOPE IT DOES, ARE WE JUST DESTINED TO LIVE THROUGH GROUNDHOG DAY FOREVER?

OR AT LEAST FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE WITH ALL THIS KIND OF STUFF?

>> WE'VE HAD 400 YEARS OF GROUNDHOG DAY SO PROBABLY.

BUT DO I THINK ACCOUNTABILITY IS IMPOTANT.

I DO THINK THAT THESE TRIALS OVER PURPOSE IN THAT THE PEOPLE WHO DO WRONG ARE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

THAT'S ALL WE ASK FOR, YOU KNOW?

JUSTICE WOULD BE OF COURSE IF THIS-HAPPEN AT ALL.

BUT WHEN THESE THINGS HAPPEN, YOU HAVE TO HAVE ACCOUNTABILITY.

AND AT LEAST IN THESE TWO INSTANCES WE SAW LAST WEEK.

>> Braude: HOW DO WE GET GREATER ACCOUNTABILITY THAT GOES BEYOND INDIVIDUAL CASES, CULTURAL CHANGE LAW CHANGE WHAT IS IT?

>> I THINK ALL OF THE ABOVE.

BUT ONE OF THE THINGS WE HAVE TO DO IS GET LAW CHANGE.

I'M A LAWYER, LAW PROFESSOR SO THIS IS AN AREA I KNOW A LOT ABOUT.

I'LL LEAVE THE CULTURAL CHANGE TO MY FRIENDS OVER AT THE TIME DIVINITY SCHOOL.

BUT AS FAR AS POSITIVE LAW WE HAVE TO BEGIN TO LET PEOPLE WHO REFLECT OUR VALUES SO THEY WILL PUT LAWS ON THE BOOKS CONSISTENT WITH THOSE VALUES.

YOU MAY OR MAY NOT LIKE ME BUT THE LAW WILL INSIST THAT YOU TREAT ME IN A PARTICULAR WAY OR ARE OR ELSE BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

I THINK THAT'S THE CLEANEST WAY OUT OF THE CONUNDRUM THAT WE FIND OURSELVES IN.

>> Baude: DO YOU SEE THAT SORT OF THING HAPPENING OR IS THAT PIPE DREAM STUFF?

>> I DO.

MAYBE I'M AN OPTIMIST BUT THERE'S SOMETHING DIFFERENT BETWEEN THE ERA BETWEEN WHEN EMMETT TILL WAS TRIED AND NOW.

OBVIOUSLY, INDISPUTABLY SO, WE HAVE MOVED IN A POSITIVE DEPRECIATION.

THE ASSOCIATION OF COLOR AND CRIMINALITY, STILL INFECTS THIS COUNTRY TO ITS VERY CORE BUT WE ARE GETTING BETTER, SLOWLY BUT SURELY WE ARE GETTING BETTER.

WE CAN'T KEEP OUR FOOT OFF THE GAS THOUGH.

WE HAVE TO KEEP INSISTING THAT WE ABBASI IN A DIFFERENT SORT OF WAY.

I THINK -- WE BEHAVE IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

I THINK IT'S GOT TO BE DOABLE OR ELSE WE'LL DESTROY EACH OTHER.

>> Braude: RENL 8 DO YOU SHARE RON'S VIEW?

>> TO ME, THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IN THE MURDER OF EMMETT TILL IN 1955 AND THE CONVICTION OF THE McMICHAELS AND WILLIAM BRIAN LAST WEEK IN THE MURDER OF AHMAUD ARBERY IS TECHNOLOGY.

WITHOUT THE VIDEOTAPE THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO TRIAL.

>> Braude: RON SULLIVAN, RENEÉE GRAHAM, THANKS.

I RAIL APPRECIATE IT.

>> THRAWNCH JIM.

>> Braude: I WANT TO STAY A MOMENT TO REMEMBER A MAN WHO DEDICATED MUCH OF HIS LIFE TO HOLDING THE POWERFUL ACCOUNTABLE AND GAVE STRENGTH TO TENS OF THOUSANDS AROUND THE WORLD IN THE PROCESS.

PHIL SAVIANO, WHO DIED YESTERDAY AT THE AGE OF 69, AFTER DECADES OF FIGHTING TO BRING TO LIGHT THE CRIMES OF PEDOPHILE PRIESTS IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND HELPING SURVIVORS LIKE HIMSELF SHARE THEIR STORIES PUBLICLY, IN AN EFFORT TO VISIT JUSTICE ON THE ABUSERS AND THE MANY WHO COVERED UP THEIR CRIMES.

SAVIANO WAS A DRIVING FORCE BEHIND THE "BOSTON GLOBE'S" FAMED "SPOTLIGHT" SERIES, FOR WHICH IT WON A 2003 PULITZER.

HE WAS PLAYED BY NEAL HUFF IN THE 2015 MOVIE ABOUT THE INVESTIGATION AND JOINED ME SHORTLY AFTER THE FILM CAME OUT, TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HE HOPED WOULD COME OF IT.

>> TRANSPARENCY-- LET US KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON BEHIND THE SCENES.

WE'RE EXPECTING TO HAVE ANOTHER FLOOD OF SURVIVORS, A YOUNGER GENERATION BECAUSE OF THE MOVIE.

BUT THE OTHER THING I'M HOPING FOR IS I'M HOPING IT'S GOING TO DO A LOT MORE PRESSURE ON THE VATICAN TO DO A BETTER JOB.

>> Braude: UNFORTUNATELY, WE'RE LARGELY STILL WAITING FOR THAT, BUT THE ORGANIZATION SAVIANO FOUNDED, THE NEW ENGLAND CHAPTER OF THE SURVIVORS NETWORK OF THOSE ABUSED BY PRIESTS, OR "SNAP," CONTINUES TO WORK TOWARD THIS GOAL EVERY DAY.

HE ALSO JOINED ME IN 2017, ON THE DAY CARDINAL BERNARD LAW DIED-- HAVING LIVED OUT HIS FINAL DAYS IN ROME, FACING VIRTUALLY NO REPERCUSSIONS FOR COVERING UP THE ACTIONS OF MULTIPLE SERIAL SEXUAL ABUSERS OVER A PERIOD OF DECADES-- AND SAVIANO REFLECTED BOTH ON THAT EVENT AND A MILESTONE OF HIS OWN.

>> I DECIDED TO WEAR MY MOURNING SUIT TODAY, NOT IN RECOGNITION OF THE DEPARTURE OF CARDINAL LAW, BUT OUT OF RESPECT FOR THE THOUSANDS OF CLERGY ABUSE SURVIVORS WHO WERE SO TRAUMATIZED BY THEIR CHILDHOOD EXPERIENCES THAT THEY GREW UP TO DIE OF DRUG OVERDOSES AND ALCOHOLISM AND SUICIDE.

THOSE PEOPLE AND THEIR FAMILIES ARE WHERE MY THOUGHTS ARE TODAY.

>> Braude: YOU-- YOUR THOUGHTS ARE ALSO-- I READ, 25 YEARS AGO WAS AN ANNIVERSARY, WAS IT NOT?

>> YES, YESTERDAY WAS THE 25th ANNIVERSARY OF THE DAY THAT I FOUND MY VOICE, AND I DROVE DOWN TO THE "BOSTON GLOBE," AND I MET WITH INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER STEVE KURKJIAN AND FOR THE FIRST TIME SPOKE PUBLICLY ABOUT MY OWN ABUSE.

>> Braude: HOW'D THAT FEEL, WHEN YOU SAID THE WORDS?

>> THAT MORNING?

YOU KNOW IT WAS LIBERATING.

IN FACT, I HAVE A RECORDING OF THAT WHOLE INTERVIEW, AND LOOKING BACK ON IT I'M SURPRISED THAT I STARTED OUT BEING REALLY ANXIOUS, BUT HALFWAY THROUGH I FOUND MY SENSE OF HUMOR.

AND, IT WAS A REALLY-- IT WAS A GOOD EXPERIENCE FOR ME AFTER YEARS OF SILENCE.

>> Braude: AND THANKS TO HIS ACTIONS, ADVOCACY AND RELENTLESSNESS, MANY MORE FOLLOWED IN HIS FOOTSTEPS, FOR WHICH HIS FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES REMEMBERED HIM TODAY: >> CLERGY SEXUAL ABUSE SURVIVORS AND VICTIMS SPEAK TRUTH TO POWER AND THAT'S WHAT PHIL DID >> HIS EXAMPLE SPOKE VOLUMES.

HIS COURAGE WAS BOUNDLESS.

HIS STRENGTH, DETERMINATION, COURAGE AND INSPIRATION WILL LIVE ON FOREVER.

>> HE HAD AN AMAZING AND PROFOUND AFFECT ON MY LIFE, LITERALLY CHANGING IT AND I WOULD SAY SAVING IT.

>> PHIL CHANGED NOT ONLY THIS PLACE AND THAT PLACE BUT EVERY OTHER PLACE AS WELL, AND I THINK THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WOULD BE WELL-ADVISED TO LEARN SOMETHING FROM PHIL SAVIANO'S APPROACH.

HE WILL BE BURIED ON FRIDAY IN A CHURCH CEMETERY IN EAST DOUGLAS MASSACHUSETTS, AFTER A FUNERAL MASS IN THE CHURCH WHERE HE WAS ABUSED.

THERE'S AN ASTONISHING OPEN-MINDEDNESS IN THAT GESTURE AND I HOPE THAT THE CHURCH CAN ABSORB THAT MESSAGE AND BEGIN TO REFLECT IT BETTER THAN IT DOES TODAY.

>> Braude: INCREDIBLE GRACE BOTH IN LIFE AND IN DEATH.

NEXT UP, WHEN IT COMES TO THE DEFINING ASPECTS OF THE 1980s, YOU MAY THINK OF HAIR BANDS, SPANDEX, MAYBE MADONNA.

BUT ME?

EVEN THOUGH I'M A PHILLY BOY I THINK OF THE LARRY BIRD ERA.

IN 13 SEASONS, HE LED THE CELTICS TO FIVE NBA FINALS AND THREE NBA CHAMPIONSHIPS, PICKING UP THREE MVP AWARDS ALONG THE WAY.

AND A REGULAR FIXTURE FOR NEARLY FOUR YEARS?

"BOSTON GLOBE" SPORTS WRITER DAN SHAUGHNESSY.

LONG BEFORE THE NBA WAS A BILLION-DOLLAR INDUSTRY, WITH PLAYERS TAKING PRIVATE JETS AND STAYING IN FIVE-STAR HOTELS, REPORTERS WERE GRANTED CLOSE ACCESS-- FLYING COMMERCIAL ALONGSIDE THE STARS, STAYING IN THE SAME HOTELS, AND HANGING OUT AT THE SAME BARS-- AS THEY TRAVELED THE COUNTRY.

AND SHAUGHNESSY'S PUT ALL HE LEARNED FROM CELTICS GIANTS LIKE BIRD, ROBERT PARISH, KEVIN McHALE, CEDRIC MAXWELL AND BILL WALTON IN HIS NEW BOOK, "WISH IT LASTED FOREVER: LIFE WITH THE LARRY BIRD CELTICS."

HE JOINS ME NOW.

DAN, CONGRATULATIONS, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> THANKS JIM, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> Braude: LET'S MAKE IT CLEAR UP FRONT.

THIS IS NOT A BOOK ABOUT BASKETBALL, THIS IS A FAIR SUMMARY IS IT NOT?

>> I THINK SO.

EVERYONE WHO KNOWS THE GAMES, TOLD STUFF, WE GET THE HALL OF FAME, THE STATS, ALL THAT, THIS IS A VIEW INSIDE THE GREATNESS AND GUYS SECURE IN THEIR GREATNESS AND UNDERSTOOD THE TEAM CONCEPT AT AN AGE WHERE WE COULD TELL YOU THE FANS WHAT THEY WERE LIKE.

THAT IS WHAT THIS IS, THE UNIVERSAL TREULTS IN HERE.

>> Braude: CAN YOU COMPARED TO WHAT YOU HAD IN THE '80s?

>> JIM, THE MOAT HAS GOTTEN VERY WIDE.

AGAIN, THE TEAMS TRAVEL SEPARATELY, THEY ARE ON CHARTER AIRCRAFT.

NO ONE IS ALLOWED INSIDE THE LOOP.

THEY STAY IN FIVE STAR HOTELS.

WE CERTAINLY DON'T DO THAT, THE LOWLY MEDIA.

NOW WEE USED TO SIT RITE NEXT TO THE BENCH, NOW THEY SELL THOSE SEATS, I UNDERSTAND THAT.

NOT HAVING THE FAME, THE GLORY AND THE MONEY AND ALL THAT STUFF, NOW THERE IS A BIG SEPARATION, THE REPORTERS REALLY CAN'T TELL YOU WHAT JAY LERVETIONEN BROWN, MARCUS ARE LIKE, IT'S HARD TO TELL, THE WAY IT'S EVOLVED, THERE IS NOT THAT ACCESS.

AND WITH COVID THE ABUNDANCE OF CAUTION NOW, THEY'RE KICKED OUTER OF THE LOCKER ROOM, NOBODY IS CLOSE TO ANYONE ANYMORE.

>> Braude: IT'S HARD TO PICK OUT MY UP CLOTHES AND PERSONAL STORY IN THE BOOK BUT I WILL.

THE IDEA THAT DAN SHAUGHNESSY WAS IN A FOUL SHOOTING CONTEST WITH LAYER BIRD FOR MONEY, CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHAT THAT WAS ABOUT?

>> HE LIKED THE MONEY, SHOOT FOR MONEY, STANDING THERE WITH A BALL 30 FOOT FROM THE HOOP, HE SAID DOLLAR, IF YOU AGREED, YOU GAVE HIM THE DOLLAR.

THE HE MISSED HE GAVE YOU A DOLLAR.

RURAL SOUTHERN INDIANA, THIS CARRIED OVER.

THEY HAD A PRACTICE, DURING THE PLAYOFFS IN '85, HE WAS TAPING HIS HAND IN A WEB.

HE HAD A BUSTED UP HAND.

HE CALLED ME SCOOP.

HE SAID, SCOOP I COULD TAPE MY HAND AND MAKE MORE SHOTS THAN YOU.

IT WAS VERY CALCULATED.

HE SAID WHOOURCH FREE THROATS, $5 A THROW, WE'LL SEE WHO CAN MAKE MORE.

LIKE A GLOVED FIST, HE MADE 86 OUT OF 100, I WAS CHOKING, I LOTS $160, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> Braude: HOW MUCH WAS HE MAKING AT THE TIME THEN?

>> OH MY GOSH, IT WAS OVER A MILLION THEN WHICH WAS THEN ASTRONOMICAL.

IF YOU RUN INTO LAYER BIRD AT ANY POINT -- AND ASK, HOW MUCH DID YOU TAKE OFF OF SCOOP SHAUGHNESSY AT THAT TIME?

HE SAID I GOT $160 OFF OF SCOOP SHAUGHNESSY.

>> Braude: THE HIK FROM FRENCH LICK THAT'S WRONG ISN'T IT?

>> CORRECT.

BOB LONG ONCE DESCRIBED HIM AS WILLFULLY UNEDUCATED.

THAT'S FAIR.

HE HAD STREET SMARTS, HE WAS SMART THEN, HE IS SMART NOW.

HEUNDERSTOOD THE DYNAMIC BETWEEN REPORTERS AND ATHLETES, HE UNDERSTOOD HIS PERSONALITY, TRYING TO KEEP PEOPLE AT BAY.

HE WAS VERY FUNNY, BACK AND FORTH.

ONCE HE TRUSTED YOU AND KNEW YOU A LITTLE BIT IT WAS PRETTY HILARIOUS.

>> Braude: WHY DID ROSHT PARAISH HATE YOU -- ROBERT PARAISHPARISH HATE YOU?

>> I DON'T KNOW, WHAT WAS UP FOR THE CHIEF, I DON'T KNOW, DISDAIN FOR YOUR ASS.

YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH THAT LOGIC.

>> Braude: DISDAIN FOR YOUR ASS.

ALSO THE WHITEST EVERY, MAYBE NOT EVER, BUT THE LAST 50 YEARS, I THINK THERE WERE EIGHT WHITE PLACE, FOUR BLACK PLAYERS.

I KNOW YOU WROTE IT WAS AN ISSUE WITH THE FANS EVEN THE FANS IN BOSTON.

WAS IT AN ISSUE WITH THE PLAYERS?

>> IT WAS A LITTLE BIT OF AN ISSUE THE FINAL YEAR.

HE WAS CLOSE TO THE GUY THAT GOT CUT, WE I GUESS HE'S PACERS NOW, THERE WAS SOME A LITTLE BIT OF TENSION ABOUT THAT, BUT RED AUERBACK WAS THE FIRST MAN IN THE NBA TO DRAFT A BLACK PLAYER, FIRST TO HIRE A COACH IN BASKETBALL, BILL RUSSELL, FIRST TO HIRE 75 BLACK PLAYERS, NO ONE ELSE WOULD DO IT.

THE COACH OF THE 85-86 CELTICS WAS CASEY JONES, AN AFRICAN AMERICAN MAN.

WHEN YOU WINNER THE CHAMPIONSHIP AND GO 50 AT HOME, THE COMPLEX OF THE ROSTER REALLY MEANS NOTHING, YOU GOT THE BEST TEAM.

>> Braude: WE'VE GOT A PICTURE OF AUERBACK AND RUSS RUSSELL.

MAXWELL DIDN'T THINK WHITE GUYS COULD PLAY UNTIL HE MET THESE GUYS RIGHT?

>> MAXWELL IS HILARIOUS.

WHEN HE WAS IN COLLEGE, NORTH CAROLINA, CHARLOTTE, HE WOULD SAY TELL ME ONE THING, IS THE GUY WHITE OR BLACK?

BECAUSE IF HE'S WHITE I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT THIS GUY.

HE SAID GOD IS A FUNNY GUY, I COME TO THE NBA AND GOD GIVES ME TWO OF THE GREATs WHITE PLAYERS OF THE GENERATION, LARRY BYRD AND McHALE.

THEY PROVED THEY COULD PLAY AND HE IS VERY GOOD AT THIS TOPIC, LIVING IN BOSTON, HE CAME HERE IN THE LATE '70s, LOT GOING IN BOSTON, RACIAL TENSION AT THAT TIME, THERE IS A LOT OF GOOD STUFF IN THE BOOK ABOUT THAT.

>> Braude: BY THE WAY, THAT PHOTOGRAPH WAS OBVIOUSLY ABDUL JABBAR AND MAGIC.

IS THERE A MORAL TO THIS STORY BEYOND JUST THE GREAT STORY FOR THOSE OF US WHO LIKE TO THINK WE WORK AS A TEAM EVEN IF NOT AT THE SAME LEVEL AND WHATEVER WE DO IS, THESE GUYS?

OR AM I READING TOO MUCH INTO IT?

>> NO JIM I THINK THAT'S FAIR.

IT COMES OUT AT THE END, BRUCE HURST, POINTS OUT, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE CELTIC GREAT PLAYERS AND THE WHITE SOX GREAT PLAYERS.

THEY HAVE A LOT OF GREATLY PLAYERS.

HE SAID WE WERE INSECURE WE COMPETED WITH EACH OTHER L, WE WEREN'T NECESSARILY ROOT BEING FOR EACH OTHER.

THESE GUYS THEY WERE ABOUT EACH OTHER AND THEY WERE NOT PETTY OR JEALOUS ABOUT WHO GOT THE MOST TOUCHES THE MOST SHOTS THE MOST MONEY.

THEY WERE SECURE IN THEIR OWN GREATNESS.

THEY TOOK CRITICISM WELL, PRACTICE WAS JOYOUS.

THIS IS A UNIVERSAL TRUTH.

IF YOU ARE A COACH, AN ATHLETE, THIS IS THE LEVEL YOU WANT TO ACHIEVE, YOU WANT A GROUP OF GUYS WHO GET BEYOND THE SELFISHNESS OF THE PEOPLE, GO FOR THE DISWRAIRT GOOD.

RED AUERBACK COULD DO THAT.

THOSE TRUTHS THEY COULD LIVE FOREVER.

>> Braude: FUN DOES MATTER.

DAN SHAUGHNESSY, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> THANKS JIM.

>> Braude: THE NAME OF THE BOOK AGAIN IS "WISH IT LASTED FOREVER: LIFE WITH THE LARRY BIRD CELTICS."

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW, I'LL BE JOINED BY HEATHER WALKER, A TOP EXEC WITH THE BOSTON CELTICS, AND HER ONCOLOGIST ON HER BATTLE WITH BRAIN CANCER-- AN EXPERIMENTAL TREATMENT-- AND HER FUNDRAISER TO FIND A CURE.

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND STAY SAFE.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org