>> Neisloss: I'M LIZ NEISLOSS IN FOR JIM BRAUDE.

TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," WE'RE DIGGING INTO HOW YOUTH VOTERS TURNED THE UNEXPECTED MIDTERM RESULTS ON THEIR HEAD.

THEN, MY INTERVIEW WITH FORMER C.I.A.

DIRCTOR JOHN BRENNAN ON HOW MUCH OF A SECURITY THREAT HE BELIEVES FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP POSES, THE LINK BETWEEN THE WAR IN UKRAINE AND INFLATION, NORTH KOREA'S NUCLEAR POWER, AND THE FUTURE OF INTELLIGENCE GATHERING.

>> Neisloss: THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF THEORIES FLYING AROUND ON JUST WHAT HAPPENED IN THE MIDTERMS THAT LED TO SUCH UNEXPECTED RESULTS, WITH THE BIG ANTICIPATED REPUBLICAN SWEEP FAILING TO MATERIALIZE.

SOME ARGUE FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP'S INVOLVEMENT DID MORE HARM THAN GOOD FOR THE REPUBLICANS HE BACKED.

OTHERS POINT TO THE INCREASED POLITICAL EXTREMISM AND THREATS TO RIGHTS LIKE ACCESS TO ABORTION THAT PUSHED PEOPLE TO THE POLLS.

BUT ANOTHER MAJOR FACTOR?

YOUTH VOTERS.

27% OF YOUNG PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY TURNED OUT TO VOTE IN THIS YEAR'S MIDTERMS.

THAT'S THE SECOND-HIGHEST YOUTH VOTER RATE IN THE PAST 30 YEARS.

AND, OVERWHELMINGLY, THEY VOTED BLUE-- 62% IN HOUSE RACES, AND IN SOME AREAS, THAT NUMBER WAS EVEN HIGHER.

SO WHAT DOES THIS TELL US ABOUT THE FUTURE OF POLITICS IN THE U.S.?

TO DISCUSS, I'M JOINED BY ASHLEY CLARK.

SHE'S A JUNIOR AT NORTHEASTERN UNIVERSITY AND ONE OF THE NATIONAL POLITICAL DIRECTORS OF VOTERS OF TOMORROW.

AND KEI KAWASHIMA-GINSBERG, NEWHOUSE DIRECTOR AT THE CENTER FOR INFORMATION AND RESEARCH ON CIVIL LEARNING AND ENGAGEMENT AT TUFTS.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US.

I'LL START WITH YOU, KEI.

THIS ELECTION WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE BIG RED WAVE, AND NOW BEING DESCRIBED AS MORE OF A RIPPLE.

AND A LOT OF THAT IS BEING ATTRIBUTED TO YOUTH INVOLVEMENT.

TELL US WHAT PART OF THE STORY WAS THE YOUTH VOTE?

>> YOUNG PEOPLE WERE REALLY A BIG PART OF THE VOTING IN MANY STATE, AND NATIONALLY, TOO.

PART STORY THAT WE ARE HEARING AND SEEING IN THE DATA IS REALLY YOUNG PEOPLE MADE THEIR OPINIONS CLEAR, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO STATE-LEVEL DECISIONS AROUND ABORTION RIGHT AND ACCESS TO REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS.

AND YOUNG PEOPLE WHO MAY NOT HAVE THOUGHT OF VOTING IN MIDTERMS SEEMED TO COME OUT IN A LARGER NUMBER AND DECIDEDLY CHOSE A DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE, PARTICULARLY IN HOUSE AND SENATE AND GOVERNOR RACES.

AND THOSE VIEWS HAVE BEEN REALLY CONSISTENT AMONG YOUNG PEOPLE.

STARTING AROUND 2018 MIDTERM ELECTIONS, WHERE YOUNG PEOPLE BROKE THEIR OWN VOTING RECORD THEN, TOO.

THAT TIME IT WAS GUN VIOLENCE MOVEMENT.

THIS TIME IT'S ABORTION.

AND YOUNG PEOPLE REALLY COMMITTED TO ENGAGING EACH OTHER, TALKING TO THEIR FRIENDS AND THEIR COUSINS AND FAMILIES TO MAKE SURE EVERYBODY THEY KNOW KNOWS ABOUT THE ISSUE AND THEN COME OUT TO MAKE THEIR INFORMED CHOICES.

SO WE'RE REALLY GLAD TO SEE THIS.

>> Neisloss: ASHLEY, YOUR ORGANIZATION IS PART OF BUILDING UP THAT VOTER BASE, GETTING PEOPLE TO THE POLLS.

TAKE US A LITTLE BIT INSIDE THE PROCESS THAT LED UP TO THIS ELECTION.

WHAT WAS MOBILIZATION LIEB?

>> YEAH, MOST DEFINITELY.

SO VOTERS OF TOMORROW, WE ARE A NATIONAL GEN-Z.

LED NATIONAL MOVEMENT ENGAGED TO REPRESENT AND EMPOWER OUR GENERATION IN POLITICS AND GOVERNMENT.

AND WITH THAT, WE HAVE HAD 20 DIFFERENT STATE CHAPTERS ACROSS THE NATION TURNING OUT YOUNG VOTERS IN KEY DISTRICTS THAT WE KNOW COULD DETERMINE THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS.

SO THAT WAS CALLING THOUSANDS OF YOUNG VOTERS IN THESE DISTRICTS.

WE SENT OVER FIVE MILLION TEXTS THIS ELECTION CYCLE TO YOUNG VOTERS, AND JUST TELLING THEM THAT THEIR VOTE AND THEIR VOICE MATTERS WHEN IT COMES TO THE KEY DECISIONS IN OUR GOVERNMENT.

>> Neisloss: DO YOU HAVE A SENSE OF WHAT ISSUES WERE KEY, ASHLEY?

WHAT REALLY WAS DRIVING PEOPLE TO ACTUALLY FOLLOW THROUGH?

>> YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

SO AS STATED BEFORE, WE HAVE SEEN ABORTION WAS A TOP ISSUE FOR YOUNG VOTERS, ALONG WITH THE ECONOMY, WITH STUDENT LOAN FORGIVENESS.

THAT HAS BEEN A VERY BIG ISSUE.

ALSO, REGARDING GUN VIOLENCE AND GUN VIOLENCE PROTECTION.

WE HAVE SEEN THE FAR RIGHT CONSTANTLY, YOU KNOW, ATTACK OUR RIGHT TO BE ABLE TO GO TO SCHOOL WITHOUT FEARING BEING SHOT.

AND SO THOSE ARE THE TYPES OF ISSUES WE'VE SEEN GEN-Z TURN OUT FOR-- ABORTION, GUN VIOLENCE PROTECTION, AND THE ECONOMY.

>> Neisloss: SO GEN Z.HAS BEEN VOTING DEMOCRATIC.

YOUR ORGANIZATION HAS A WHOLE LIST OF INITIATIVES AND GOALS, KIND OF LIKE A WISH LIST FOR GOVERNMENT, WHICH IS A VERY DEMOCRATIC AGENDA.

DO YOU ALSO-- DO YOU OPEN UP TO REPUBLICAN VOTERS?

IS IT ABOUT A PARTY?

HOW DO YOU DESCRIBE IT?

>> YEAH, SO, VOTERS OF TOMORROW, WE HAVE LAUNCHED WHAT WE CONSIDER TO BEAUR GEN Z AGENDA, MEANING ALL THE ISSUES WE REGARD GEN-Z VOTING FOR, GUN VIOLENCE PREVENTION, ENSURING WE HAVE ACCESS TO HIGHER EDUCATION.

THROUGHOUT MOBILIZATION EFFORTS, WE DO NOT FOLK ON TARGETING A CERTAIN PARTY.

OUR DEMOCRACY IS BETTER WHEN WE ALL VOTE.

IT DOESN'T MEAN TURNING OUT YOUNG DEMOCRATS, YOUNG REPUBLICANS.

THAT MEANS EVERY SINGLE YOUNG INDIVIDUAL BETWEEN 18 AND 29, OUTSIDE OF THAT, SHOULD HAVE THEIR RIGHT TO VOTE, AND US HAVING THE MOBILIZATION EFFORTS TO GIVE THEM THEIR-- THOSE TOOLS TO HAVE THEIR VOICES HEARD HAS BEEN A REALLY GREAT OPPORTUNITY, AND WE HAVE JUST VERY, VERY GREAT SUCCESS THIS MIDTERM ELECTION.

>> Neisloss: KEI, TELL US WHAT RACES WHERE YOUTH WAS REALLY KEY TO MAKING A CHANGE.

>> SO THERE ARE SOME STATES WHERE STATEWIDE RACES, LIKE WISCONSIN GOVERNOR, GEORGIA SENATOR, AND ARIZONA GOVERNOR, THOSE ARE SOME OF THE PLACES WE WERE NAMING BEFORE THE ELECTION, BASED ON THE DATA ALREADY AVAILABLE, YOUNG PEOPLE WERE LIKELY TO BE REALLY PIVOTAL.

AND IT'S TURNING OUT TO BE TRUE.

THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THINGS TO SAY ABOUT THAT.

ONE, YOUNG PEOPLE TEND TO MAKE VERY DIFFERENT, AS A GROUP, A CHOICES TOO WHO THEY PREFER AS A CANDIDATE.

IN THE RACES WE JUST NAMED, THEY HAPPENED TO PREFER THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE BY LARGE MARGIN, WHERE OTHER AGE GROUPS TEND TO PREFER THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE, OFTEN BY A LARGE MARGIN.

>> Neisloss: WE HAVE ONE EXAMPLE IN PENNSYLVANIA.

VOTERS IN PENNSYLVANIA SUPPORTING FETTERMAN WHEN COMPARED BY AGE GROUP.

18-29 IT WAS 70% OF THAT GROUP, COMPARED TO 55% OF THE 30-44 GROUP.

SO WHAT WAS REALLY DRIVING VOTERS?

ASHLEY, DO YOU HAVE A SENSE OF WHAT WAS DRIVING VOTERS IN PENNSYLVANIA?

>> I THINK IN PENNSYLVANIA SPECIFICALLY WE HAD TWO VERY DIFFERENT CANDIDATES.

ONE WAS A PRO-DEMOCRACY CANDIDATE, JOHN FETTERMAN, AGAINST DR. OZ, WHO WAS SAYING, YOU KNOW, HE WOULD BE FIGHTING FOR TAKING AWAY A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE, THAT, YOU KNOW, THE RIGHT TO AN ABORTION WAS BETWEEN A WOMAN, HER DOCTOR, AND LOCAL POLITICIANS.

AND GEN-Z.

DOESN'T WANT THAT.

THAT WAS SEEN IN PENNSYLVANIA WHERE THE VOTERS TURNED OUT FOR JOHN FETTERMAN TO REJECT THE FAR-RIGHT NOTION OF DR. OZ.

I THINK THOSE PLAYED INTO WHY JOHN FETTERMAN PREVAILED ON TUESDAY.

>> Neisloss: KEI, THE GROUP GEN-Z., WE SHOULD REMIND PEOPLE THAT'S BETWEEN THE AGE OF 10 AND 25, OR 8 AND 23, DEPENDING HOW YOU CALCULATE IT.

IT'S NOT A MONOLITHIC GROUP.

HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN, REALLY, WHAT THE SPECTRUM IS?

>> THEY'RE BOTH REALLY DIVERSE IN TERMS OF DEMOGRAPHICS.

IT'S, YOU KNOW, ABOUT-- EVEN THE YOUNGEST GROUP OF THIS GEN-Z.

VOTERS, 46% ARE PEOPLE OF COLOR, THE ONES THAT TURNED 18 AFTER THE 2020 ELECTION.

AND A REALLY LARGE BUT SIGNIFICANT MINORITY OF YOUNG PEOPLE ALSO IDENTIFY WITH L.G.B.T.Q.

COMMUNITY.

IT'S REALLY DIVERSE IN THAT WAY, AND THEY HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS COMING THROUGH BECAUSE OF THEIR DIVERSE LIVED EXPERIENCES.

BUT IDEOLOGICALLY, TOO, THEY ARE REALLY LEANING DEMOCRATIC IN TERMS OF VOTING.

BUT THE VAST MAJORITY OF THEM, ABOUT 60%, CONSIDER THEMSELVES AS PROGRESSIVE, BUT NOT DEMOCRATS, INTERESTINGLY.

SO ONLY ABOUT A THIRD OF YOUNG PEOPLE TODAY SAY THEY ARE ACTUALLY DEMOCRATS.

AND THEN ABOUT HALF OF THEM ARE LARGELY UNAFFILIATED.

THEY CAN LEAN EITHER WAY, BUT THEY'RE NOT REALLY BOUGHT INTO THE IDEA OF MAJOR PARTY.

I THINK ASHLEY MAY HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT THAT, TOO, IN THAT YOUNG PEOPLE ARE REALLY LOOKING AT CANDIDATES AND WHAT THEY CAN PROMISE AND WHAT THEY CAN DELIVER.

THAT REALLY DERIEFS HOW YOUNG PEOPLE VIEW SPECIFIC CANDIDATES AND,, OF COURSE, HOW THEY COME OUT TO VOTE FOR A SPECIFIC CANDIDATE.

>> Neisloss: SO, ASHLEY, FEEL FREE TO WEIGH IN ON THAT.

BUT I REALLY WANT TO UNDERSTAND THIS IDEA THAT GEN-Z ARE DESCRIBED AS MISTRUSTFUL OF INSTITUTIONS, DISULLUGZED WITH GOVERNMENT.

WHAT WOULD YOU DESCRIBE WHAT IT IS THAT MOTIVATES THE VOTER?

IF YOU ARE DISILLUSIONED, WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO DRAW YOU IN TO SAY I'VE GOT TO DIVE IN AND HELP MAKE A CHANGE?

AS OPPOSED TO APATHY-- I JUST CAN'T CHANGE ANYTHING.

>> I THINK OVER THE PAST TWO YEARS, WE'VE SEEN EXTREME CHANGE WITH THE VOTING BLOC OF GEN-Z, AND THAT'S JUST BECAUSE WE'VE SEEN A LOT MORE LEGISLATION DELIVERED.

LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, WE HAVE SEEN GUN CONTROL LEGISLATION PASSED PASSED IN CONGRESS.

WE HAVE SEEN THE LARGEST INVESTMENT IN CLIMATE CHANGE, YOU KNOW, THE CANCELLATION OF STUDENT LOAN DEBT, THESE ARE ALL ISSUES THAT GEN-Z REALLY DOES TURN OUT FOR, AND I THINK WE SAW THAT ONED IT WITH THE SECOND HIGHEST RATE-- HIGHEST LEVEL OF YOUTH TURNOUT SINCE 2018.

THESE ARE JUST ISSUES THAT, YOU KNOW, THE DEMOCRATS AND OTHER PEOPLE IN POWER HAVE BEEN DELIVERING ON.

AND IN RETURN, GEN-Z HAS DELIVERED AT THE BALLOT BOX.

>> Neisloss: HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK THINGS LIKE THE PANDEMIC, SOCIAL UNREST, JANUARY 6, CLIMATE CHANGE, THERE ARE A LOT OF-- A LOT OF THINGS ROILING IN THE PAST DECADE.

HOW MUCH DOES THAT REALLY IMPACT AND MOTIVATE THE GEN-Z VOTER?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, WE'RE A GENERATION THAT'S GROWN UP THROUGH 9/11, THE ECONOMIC RESESSION OF 2008, COVID, AND THROUGH ALL OF THIS, OUR GENERATION HAS PREVAILED AND HAS SAID OUR VOICES NEED TO BE HEARD, AND WE HAVE A VOICE THAT MATTERS ON THESE ISSUES.

AND THAT IS FROM SPANNING FROM WASHINGTON, D.C., WHERE WE JUST ELECTED THE FIRST GEN-Z MEMBER OF CONGRESS, MAXWELL FROST IN TO INDIVIDUALS IN GEN-Z, NOW IN THE STATE LEGISLATURES IN THEIR STATES.

WE AS A GENERATION HAVE SAID ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

WE ARE HERE TO HAVE OUR VOICES HEARD.

AND WE ARE FIGHTING BACK AGAINST THESE ISSUES WE HAVE BEEN GROWING UP WITH OUR ENTIRE LIVES.

>> Neisloss: KEI, HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK THE FACT GEN-Z HAS GROWN UP ON SOCIAL MEDIA, REALLY CAN'T TURN AWAY FROM THE NEWS THE WAY MAYBE EARLIER GENERATIONS COULD.

HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK THAT FACTORS INTO HOW INVOLVED THEY ARE?

>> I THINK HUGELY.

SO WE ARE ALSO SEEING NOT OWN GEN-Zs COHSUME NEWS AND INFORMATION, LARGELY COMING FROM FRIENDS AND SOCIAL MEDIA AS THE MAIN SOURCE OF INFORMATION IN MANY CASES, BUT ALSO THEY, THEMSELVES, MAKE NEWS OR INFORMATION FOR THEIR FRIENDS AND THEIR MICRO-COMMUNITY WHERE THEY DO HAVE INFLUENCE.

THAT'S A VERY DIFFERENT USE OF SOCIAL MEDIA THAN WHAT WE USED TO SEE, WHICH IS THE YOUNG PEOPLE AS CONSUMERS OF INFORMATION.

NOW THEY'RE THE CREATOR OF THAT INFORMATION.

LIKE ASHLEY SAID, THEY'RE TURNING OUT EACH OTHER BY INFORMING THEM ABOUT THE LOCAL RACE OR THE CANDIDATE RUNNING FOR STATE LEGISLATURE TO SAY, "HEY, THERE'S SOMETHING REALLY EXCITING THAT WE CAN IMPACT."

AND I WOULD ALSO SAY THAT YOUNG PEOPLE ARE NOT AT ALL CHECKED OUT OF POLITICS.

IF ANYTHING, OUR PREVIOUS GENERATIONS, MY GENERATION INCLUDED, WERE MORE CHECKED OUT.

THEIR MOVEMENTS AND ACTIVISM AND ORGANIZING IS REALLY GOVERNMENT ENGAGEMENT.

THEY'RE DIRECTLY CALLING OUT THEIR STATE ELECTED OFFICIALS AND NATIONAL ELECTED OFFICIALS TO SAY YOU NEED TO MAKE BETTER POLICIES.

YOU NEED TO BE ACCOUNTABLE TO US.

AND JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE PROTESTING DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE ABANDONING DEMOCRACY.

THEY'RE INTO IT.

>> Neisloss: THANK YOU.

VERY, VERY QUICKLY, ASHLEY, WHAT IS THE PLAN FOR GEORGIA, FOR THE WARNOCK-HERSCHEL WALKER RUNOFF?

IS THERE A SPECIFIC PLAN THERE?

VERY QUICKLY.

>> VERY QUICKLY, WE VOTERS OF TOMORROW HAVE ALREADY ESTABLISHED THE PLANS THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE GOING DOWN TO GEORGIA, BEING ON THE GROUND AND PROVIDE ANYTHING HELP TO YOUNG VOTERS THAT WE CAN TO HELP ENSURE THAT THEY ARE MAKING THEIR VOICES HEARD IN THIS ESSENTIAL RACE FOR THE CONTROL OF THE SENATE.

>> Neisloss: OKAY, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

THANK YOU BOTH VERY MUCH.

ASHLEY AND KEI.

THANKS FOR EXPLAINING THIS TO US.

>> YOU'RE WELCOME.

>> THANK YOU.

THE U.S. IS FACING GLOBAL THREATS RANGING FROM NORTH KOREA'S NUCLEAR CAPABILITY TO ELECTION INTERFERENCE BY CHINA.

THAT'S WHAT FORMER C.I.A.

DIRECTOR JOHN BRENNAN TOLD ME IN A RECENT WIDE-RANGING INTERVIEW.

BUT THREATS AREN'T JUST FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES.

BRENNAN TALKED ABOUT ONGOING SECURITY ISSUES RIGHT HERE AT HOME.

BRENNAN SAID HE WAS AGHAST AT TRUMP'S STEALING OF TOP-SECRET DOCUMENTS, WHICH COULD CHILL FUTURE RELATIONSHIPS WITH INFORMANTS.

PLUS, WE DUG INTO THE DANGER OF ELECTION DENIERS HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

HE RECENTLY JOINED ME AT THE BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY.

I'M GOING TO DIVE RIGHT IN WITH WHAT IS IN THE HEADLINES RIGHT NOW, ASK THAT'S NORTH KOREA.

WE'VE SEEN A RECORD NUMBER OF NORTH KOREAN MISSILES BEING LAUNCHED.

THIS IS IN A RECORD YEAR FOR NORTH KOREAN MISSILE LAUNCHES.

AND IT JUST SEEMS TO KEEP GOING.

THERE MAY BE QUESTIONS ABOUT THEIR NUCLEAR WARHEAD CAPABILITY, BUT THERE'S GATHERING CONSENSUS THAT A MISSILE CAN STRIKE THE UNITED STATES AT THIS POINT.

AND SO THE DONALD TRUMP BEAT CONTINUES.

WE SEE ESCALATION THIS WEEK.

ARE WE JUDGING THIS LEADER IN THE RIGHT WAY?

>> NORTH KOREA HAS BEEN A NUCLEAR STATE FOR QUITE SOME TIME.

THEY WERE ABLE TO DEVELOP A NUCLEAR WARHEAD, AND AS YOU POINT OUT, THEY'VE DEVELOPED A BROAD ARRAY OF MISSILES THAT CAN GO SHORT RANGE AS WELL AS INTERCONTINENTAL RANGE TO HIT THE UNITED STATES.

AND I THINK THEY CONTINUE TO REFINE THE MISSILE CAPABILITIES AND THE MATING OF THAT WARHEAD SO THEY FEEL CONFIDENT IF THEY WERE TO LAUNCH SOME TYPE OF NUCLEAR STRIKE, THAT THE ACTUAL TARGET WILL BE HIT WITH THE NUCLEAR DETONATION.

AND I THINK KIM JONG-UN LIKES WORLD ATTENTION, AND WITH EVERYTHING FOCUSED RIGHT NOW ON UKRAINE AND RUSSIA AND CHINA, I THINK MAYBE HE FEELS THAT THIS IS THE TIME MAYBE TO DO SOME THINGS, SINCE THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF FOCUS IN OTHER AREAS.

MAYBE HE THINKS THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER COUNTRIES ARE NOT GOING TO PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT HE'S DOING AND RESPOND.

BUT WE SHOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON, BECAUSE KIM JONG-UN DOES HAVE THE CAPABILITY THAT POSES A THREAT, NOT JUST TO THE REGION BUT ALSO THE UNITED STATES PROPER ITSELF.

>> Neisloss: WHEN IT COMES TO THE SUBJECT OF ELECTIONS, THE CHINESE HAVE NOW EMERGED AS MEDDLERS IN U.S.

ELECTIONS.

RUSSIA GETS ALL THE ATTENTION.

BUT NOW WE ARE SEEING MORE AND MORE THAT CHINA IS MAKING A DECISION TO GET INVOLVED.

I KNOW THEY HAVE APPEARED IN PREVIOUS REPORTS AS A POTENTIAL ACTOR, MAYBE DIDN'T ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING.

NOW IT SEEMS THAT THEY ARE SORT OF WADING INTO THE WATERS.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS NOW?

>> I THINK THE CHINESE HAVE BEEN NOT JUST INTERESTED IN U.S. ELECTIONSELECTIONS FOR MANY YEARS, BUT ALSO INVOLVED.

I THINK IT WAS VERY SUBTLE.

THEY WOULD PUSH OUT PROPAGANDA.

THEY WOULD PUSH OUT REPORTS THAT WERE FAVORABLE TOWARDS CERTAIN POLICIES THAT WERE ADVOCATED BY AMERICAN CANDIDATES IN ELECTIONS.

AND THEY CONTINUE TO DO THAT OVER TIME.

I THINK THEY'VE BECOME MORE AGGRESSIVE, MAYBE LESS SUBTLE.

AND IT'S CLEAR THAT THE U.S.-CHINA TENSION IS SOMETHING THAT HAS MANIFESTED ITSELF, INCLUDING IN ELECTION CAMPAIGN RHETORIC HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO I DO THINK THE CHINESE ARE WATCHING VERY CAREFULLY.

THE U.S.

ELECTORAL MAP.

THEY'RE ASTUTE OBSERVERS OF U.S.

POLITICS, AND I THINK WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO DO IS TRY TO ENHANCE THE PROSPECTS OF SOME CANDIDATES WHO MIGHT BE LESS AGGRESSIVE TOWARD CHINA AND MAYBE MORE ACCOMMODATING TOWARDS SOME OF THE THINGS THAT THE CHINESE WANT TO ACCOMPLISH, NOT JUST GLOBALLY BUT ALSO HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> Neisloss: SO TURNING TO ANOTHER SUBJECT YOU GET A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT.

THIS IS TRUMP AND THE DOCUMENTS.

NOW, I LIVED IN CHINA FOR A FEW YEARS, AND WHEN I MOVED THERE, I KNOW THAT WHAT WENT INTO MY MOVING BOXES-- THE BOOKS, WHATEVER MEDIA I HAD-- THEY WERE SCRUTINIZED.

THEY WERE COUNTED.

I WAS WARNED.

I FEEL LIKE MY BELONGINGS WERE MORE CLOSELY WATCHED THAN WHAT TRUMP MAY HAVE PUT INTO BOXES AND TAKEN OUT TO MAR-A-LAGO.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE WONDERING HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?

WAS THERE NO, OR IS THERE NO PROTOCOL FOR THE HANDLING OF SENSITIVE DOCUMENTS?

>> WELL, I AM AGHAST AT WHAT I'VE SEEN.

I FIND IT SHOCKING.

BUT I ALSO FOUND IT SHOCKING THAT SOMEONE LIKE DONALD TRUMP WOULD BE ELECTED TO BE PRESIDENT OF THE YUT.

AND IT'S CLEAR THAT HE HAD THIS CALLOUS IT DISREGARD FOR SECURITY PRACTICES, TRYING TO ENSURE THAT THE MOST HIGHLY RESTRICTED, HIGHLY SENSITIVE INFORMATION, INTELLIGENCE THE U.S. HAS IS GOING TO BE LEFT UNSECURED FOR 18, 19 MONTHS.

IT WAS CLEARLY INTENTIONAL.

HE BROUGHT IT OUT FROM THE WHITE HOUSE.

HE TRIED TO KEEP IT FROM THE GOVERNMENT'S EFFORTS TO TRY TO RETRIEVE IT.

THEREFORE, IT'S ALSO PUZZLING TO ME WHY HE SELECTED THESE SPECIFIC DOCUMENTS.

WHAT WAS ABOUT THEM THAT HE HOPED TO DO?

I CAN UNDERSTAND THE KIM JONG-UN LETTERS.

MAYBE IT-- >> Neisloss: MEMORABILIA.

>> EXACTLY.

BUT SOME OF THESE OTHER THINGS, AND I KNOW THE PROGRAMS THAT THEY RELATE TO.

I SAW THE CODE WORD AND THE CLASSIFICATION LEVELS.

IT'S VERY, VERY WORRYING.

AND I THINK IT HAS DONE GREAT DAMAGE TO U.S. INTELLIGENCE CAPABILITIES ABROAD AS INDIVIDUALS AND FOREIGN LIAISON SERVICES REALLY HAVE TO QUESTION WHETHER OR NOT THEY CAN PROVIDE US THIS VERY SENSITIVE INTELLIGENCE AND THAT WE'RE GOING TO PROTECT IT.

>> Neisloss: JUST BACK ON THAT QUESTION OF HOW IT'S POSSIBLE.

IS THERE NO PROTOCOL FOR THE MOVEMENT OF THIS TYPE OF DOCUMENT?

DID WE ALWAYS JUST ASSUME IT WILL BE FINE IN THE HAND OF THE PRESIDENT?

THEY'LL DO THE RIGHT THING?

>> WELL, PRESIDENTS, IN MY EXPERIENCE, THE SIX THEY WORKED FOR, ALWAYS DID THE RIGHT THING.

WHEN A PRESIDENT LEAVES THE WHITE HOUSE AND IT'S THE STAFF, YOU WOULD LIKE TO THINK THAT THE STAFF ALSO BELIEVES THAT THEY HAVE CERTAIN RESPONSIBILITIES AND OBLIGATIONS TO ENSURE THAT NOTHING ILLEGAL IS GOING TO HAPPEN AND REMOVING THOSE DOCUMENTS IN AN UNSECURED FASHION WAS AN ILLEGAL ACT.

SO, YES, IT RAISES MANY QUESTIONS IN MY MIND IN TERMS OF WHAT TYPE OF ASSISTANCE OR SUPPORT HE HAD.

BUT, CLEARLY, THERE WAS A BREAKDOWN.

IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THROUGHOUT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THE SECURITY PRACTICING IN THE WHITE HOUSE REALLY WERE NOT FOLLOWED THE WAY PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATIONS HAD FOLLOWED THEM.

>> Neisloss: AND WHILE WE'RE ON THE SUBJECT OF TRUMP, IT STILL SEEMS THAT ELECTION DENIERS WILL NOT BE DISSUADED.

AND THERE ARE PLENTY OF PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO BELIEVE IN THE DEEP STATE.

HOW DOES THE GOVERNMENT, HOW DOES ANYONE DISABUSE THOSE PEOPLE OF THE NOTION THAT THERE IS A DEEP STATE?

>> I THINK IT TAKES OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS, SENIOR U.S. GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, AS WELL AS THOSE WHO REALLY HAVE AN IMPACT AND INFLUENCE ON PEOPLE TO DISPUTE AND REFUTE THOSE ALLEGATIONS, WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT THE BIG LIE OR THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT THE DEEP STATE.

THERE ARE AMERICAN MEN AND WOMEN WHO WORK AT THE C.I.A., THE F.B.I., HOMELAND SECURITY, OTHER PLACES, THAT REALLY GO TO GREAT LENGTHS TO PROTECT THEIR FELLOW CITIZENS.

AND I WAS SO OUTRAGED WHEN DONALD TRUMP WOULD DISPARAGE AND DISRESPECT THE PROFESSIONALS IN THE F.B.I.

AND C.I.A.

AND OTHER PLACES.

SO THERE IS NO DEEP STATE.

THESE ARE PATRIOTS WHO ARE WORKING AROUND THE CLOCK AND AROUND THE GLOBE AT GREAT RISK AND GREAT SACRIFICE TO KEEP THIS COUNTRY STAVE AND SECURE.

>> Neisloss: WHEN YOU LEARNED THAT THE OLDEST GUANTANAMO PRISONER, A PAKISTANI CITIZEN, WAS RELEASED, HE WAS TORTURED, LIKE DOZENS OF OTHERS, NEVER CHARGED, IMPRISONED FOR NEARLY 20 YEARS, DO YOU FIND THE IDEA THAT ANYONE COULD HAVE BEEN HELD THAT LONG AND WITHOUT CHARGE?

DO YOU FOUND THAT PERSONALLY PAINFUL?

>> YES, I DO.

I THINK THOSE INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE INVOLVED IN THOSE 9/11 ATTACKS, THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN BROUGHT TO JUSTICE MANY YEARS AGO.

THEY DESERVED THEIR OPPORTUNITY IN COURT.

BUT, ALSO, THE VICTIMS OF 9/11 DESERVED TO HAVE THESE INDIVIDUALS TRIED AND CONVICTED IF THEY ARE FOUND GUILTY.

IT WAS UNFORTUNATE THAT IT WAS DECIDED-- AND IT WAS DECIDED DURING THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION-- TO PUT THESE PEOPLE IN THE MILITARY COMMISSION ROUTE AS OPPOSED TO AN ARTICLE THREE COURT, IN TERMS OF THE U.S.

CIVILIAN JUSTICE SYSTEM.

THE CIVILIAN JUSTICE SYSTEM HAS I THINK A STRONG HISTORY AND A GOOD ABILITY TO CARRY OUT THESE PROSECUTIONS EFFECTIVELY AND QUICKLY.

BUT THE MILITARY COMMISSION ROUTE WAS ONE THAT WAS REALLY UNEXPLORED.

THERE WASN'T A LOT OF CASE LAW IN IT.

SO IT'S BEEN DELAY AFTER DELAY AFTER DELAY.

THAT'S WHY IT'S BEEN VERY UNFORTUNATE, HERE WE ARE 20 YEARS ON, AND THEY STILL HAVE NOT MET THEIR DAY IN COURT.

>> Neisloss: SO THERE ARE STILL 35, APPROXIMATELY, PRISONERS?

A PORTION OF THEM ARE ON TRACK TO BE RETURNED TO THEIR COUNTRIES, MAYBE 10. WHO KNOWS?

HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE WHY IT TAKES SO LONG TO RETURN A PRISONER?

>> WELL, SOME OF THESE INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE TRANSFERRED OVERSEAS, THEY'RE TRANSFERRED INTO THE CUSTODY OF A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT, AND THERE ARE CERTAIN ARRAIGNMENTS MADE TO ENSURE THESE INDIVIDUALS DO NOT JUST GO THE ROUTE OF RETURNING TO A TERRORIST GROUP.

JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE RELEASED OR TRANSFERRED OVERSEAS DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY WERE TOTALLY INNOCENT AT ALL.

>> Neisloss: BUT WE NEVER WERE ABLE TO CHARGE ANY OF THESE PEOPLE.

>> I KNOW.

AGAIN, IT'S THE PROBLEM RELATED TO THE MILITARY COMMISSIONS.

I JUST DON'T THINK WE WERE ABLE TO BRING THOSE CHARGES EFFECTIVELY.

AND A LOT OF THESE INDIVIDUALS, YOU'RE RIGHT, WERE SUSPECTED OF TERRORIST ACTIVITY.

BUT SOME OF THEM I DON'T THINK EVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE FOR THAT LENGTH OF TIME.

BUT IT IS UNFORTUNATE, AND I'D LIKE TO THINK THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO TRY TO RESOLVE THIS ISSUE-- AGAIN, CHARGE THOSE INDIVIDUALS WHO DESERVE TO BE CHARGED AND CONVICTED, BUT ALSO TRANSFER TO COUNTRIES, THEIR COUNTRIES OF ORIGIN OR THEIR LAST POINT OF DEPARTURE BEFORE THEY WERE TAKEN CAPTIVE, SO THAT WE CAN CLOSE GUANTANAMO.

IT IS A BLIGHT.

IT IS A TAINT ON IT US AND I WOULD LIKE IT TO BE CLOSED.

>> Neisloss: INFLATION AND ITS LINK TO UKRAINE.

HOW DO GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, LEADERS, POLITICIANS, SOMEONE LIKE YOU, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THE COST-BENEFIT EQUATION OF STICKING WITH THE COURSE?

>> WELL, THAT'S WHAT THE JOB OF THE PRESIDENTING AND MEMBERS OF CONGRESS IS TO EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE THAT THE UNITED STATES CANNOT JUST ISOLATE ITSELF IN THIS WORLD.

THIS IS AN INTERCONNECTED WORLD.

AND WHAT HAPPENS GLOBALLY DOES AFFECT OUR INTERESTS.

IT AFFECTS NOT JUST ISSUES RELATED TO INFLATION, BUT GLOBAL SUPPLY CHAINS, OTHER TYPES OF THINGS.

WE HAVE TO WATCH OUT WHAT'S HAPPENING NOT JUST IN NORTH KOREA, BUT ALSO CHINA.

AND RUSSIA'S UNPROVOKED INVASION OF UKRAINE, A EUROPEAN COUNTRY, DESTROYING MUCH OF THAT COUNTRY, KILLING TENS OF THOUSANDS OF INDIVIDUALS, INCLUDING OF HIS OWN TROOPS, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK THE UNITED STATES AS THE LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD CANNOT IGNORE.

SO I AM VERY GLAD THAT THE UNITED STATES, ALONG WITH OUR NATO PARTNERS, HAVE BEEN VERY SUPPORTIVE OF UKRAINE, PROVIDING THEM THE CAPABILITY, THE WEAPONRY THAT THEY NEED IN ORDER TO WITHSTAND THE RUSSIAN MILITARY.

BUT THERE IS GOING TO BE A QUESTION OF HOW MUCH WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD TO GIVE TO UKRAINE.

IT DOES COME AT SOME PRICE.

BUT, CLEARLY, THE EUROPEANS ARE FEELING THAT PINCH BECAUSE OF THE CUTOFF IN RUSSIAN OIL AND GAS INTO EUROPE.

SO I THINK WE RECOGNIZE THAT THIS IS SNAG SOMETHING THAT REALLY IS QUITE AN INFLECTION POINT AS FAR AS RELATIONS BETWEEN RUSSIA AND THE WEST.

WE HAVE TO STOP RUSSIA IN TERMS OF NOT BEING ABLE TO BE VICTORIOUS IN UKRAINE.

AND IT IS GOING TO COME AT A COST.

AND I'D LIKE TO THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE RECOGNIZE THAT WE CANNOT JUST WORRY ABOUT OURSELVES HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

WE REALLY DO HAVE I THINK RESPONSIBILITIES GLOBALLY.

>> Neisloss: SO ON THE QUESTION OF RUSSIA AND HOW WE ARE MANAGING THEM.

BACK IN 2017, YOU SAID AFTER RUSSIA MARCHED INTO CRIMEA AND THEN ANNEXED IT, THAT PUTIN'S DECISION TO BRING MILITARY INTO SYRIA WAS REALLY BASED ON THE IDEA THAT HE DIDN'T SEE A WESTERN MILITARY REACTION.

AND YOU COMPARED IT TO THE IDEA OF THE SCHOOLIARD BULLY THAT NEEDS TO GET THEIR NOSE BLOODIED.

YOU BASICALLY SAID PUTIN SHOULD HAVE HAD HIS NOSE BLOODIED A BIT.

SO NOW HERE WE ARE, IN A PROXY WAR, ESSENTIALLY, WITH UKRAINE.

ARE WE HANDLING PUTIN CORRECTLY NOW?

>> WELL, THAT SCHOOL YARD BULLY NOW HAS TWO BLACKIZE, A BLOODY LIP.

HE HAS TAKEN SOME REAL SHOTS TO THE GUT.

IT'S CLEAR THAT THAT BULLY WAS NOT AS FEARSOME AS I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE THOUGHT.

AND I DO THINK THAT NEWSCAST, WE MIGHT HAVE-- IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN BETTER FOR US TO STAND UP TO RUSSIA.

I THINK PUTIN WAS VERY CALCULATING IN TERMS OF HOW FAR HE COULD GO, BELIEVING THAT HE WAS NOT GOING TO PROVOKE A U.S. MILITARY RESPONSE, WHICH IS WHAT HAPPENED IN SYRIA.

BUT, CLEARLY, UKRAINE IS A DIFFERENT SITUATION AND THE NATO COUNTRIES DECIDED THAT THIS COULD NOT BE JUST LEFT UNADDRESSED.

NATO FORCES HAVE NOT GONE INTO UKRAINE, AND SO WHAT WE HAVE DECIDED TO DO IS PROVIDE THE WHERE WITH ALL TO THE UKRAINIAN FORCES TO PUSH THE RUSSIANS BACK.

AND THANK THRE, THE UKRAINIANS HAVE COMMITTED THEMSELVES REMARKABLY WELL ON THE BATTLEFIELD, AND THE RUSSIANS ARE INCOMPETENT AND INEPT ON THE MILITARY FIELD.

>> Neisloss: ARE YOU A FAN OF THE SPY THRILLER MOVIE.

ARE YOU THE ANNOYING GUY IN THE ROOM WHO SAYS, "THAT WOULDN'T HAPPEN?

>> YEAH, I AM THE ANNOYING GUY IN THE ROOM IF I'M WATCHING A MOVIE OR TELEVISION SHOW BECAUSE I LIVED IT FOR SO MANY YEARS, AND I KNOW WHAT THE C.I.A.

IS AND ISN'T.

AND I ALSO KNOW WHAT THE OVAL LOST LOOKS LIKE.

SO, YEAH, I HAVE WATCHED A FEW MOVIES.

BUT I TEND TO LOOK AT SOME OF THE OLDER MOVIES OF "BRIDGE OF SPIES" WHICH WAS A MOVIE ABOUT AN EXCHANGE OF PRISONERS BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND THE SOVIET UNION IN THE EARLY 60s.

I LIKE TO LOOK AT MOVIES FROM THE ERA BEFORE I JOINED THE AGENCY, AS OPPOSED TO WHEN I WAS IN NATIONAL SECURITY.

>> Neisloss: UH-HUH.

PERHAPS YOU CAN LEAVE ME A LIST OF THOSE, YOUR FAVORITES AND WE CAN SHARE THEM WITH OUR VIEWERS.

I HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, LIZ.

>> THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

COME BACK TOMORROW FOR TALKING POLITICS HELD ONTO CONTROL OF THE STATE HOUSE, AND RETURNED MASSACHUSETTS TO SINGLE-PARTY RULE.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR THE FUTURE OF STATE POLITICS?

PLUS, U.S. ATTORNEY RACHAEL ROLLINS IS UNDER INVESTIGATION OVER AN APPEARANCE AT A POLITICAL FUNDRAISER.

IS THERE A THERE, THERE?

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org