ADAM: TONIGHT ON TALKING POLITICS, JOURNALIST NICHOLAS KRISTOF HAS BEEN ON THE GROUND COVERING SOME OF THE BIGGEST INTERNATIONAL TORIES FOR THE PAST FOUR DECADES, FROM TIANANMEN SQUARE TO IRAQ AND SUDAN.

HE CHRONICLES HIS CAREER IN HIS NEW MEMOIR, "CHASING HOPE: A REPORTER’S LIFE."

HE JOINS ME NOW.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

THE BOOK IS A WONDERFUL READ.

THERE ARE TOO MANY THINGS TO ASK YOU ABOUT EVEN IN HALF AN HOUR.

IT SEEMS TO ME THIS OPERATES ON THREE DIFFERENT LEVELS.

A STORY OF PERSONAL INFORMATION, ABOUT YOURSELF.

IT IS ALSO A SNAPSHOT OF A PARTICULAR MOMENT IN POLITICAL HISTORY, CULTURAL HISTORY.

AND THIS REALLY INTERESTING EXAMINATION OF THE WAY JOURNALISM IS PRACTICED, THE ASSUMPTIONS WE MAKE ABOUT THE WAY JOURNALISM IS PRACTICED IN THE WAY IT COULD BE PRACTICED THAT WE DON’T THINK ABOUT.

WHY DID YOU MAKE THE CAREER AT THIS POINT?

NICHOLAS: MAYBE I SHOULD HAVE THANKED THE OREGON SECRETARY OF STATE BECAUSE SHE TOSSED ME OUT OF THE GOVERNOR’S RACE AND ALL OF A SUDDEN I HAD TIME ON MY HANDS AND I DIDN’T HAVE TO ASK AN EDITOR FOR BOOK LEAVE.

ADAM: I WAS GOING TO ASK ABOUT THE RUN FOR GOVERNOR LATER, BUT LET’S GO NOW.

YOU WERE DEEMED NOT ELIGIBLE TO RUN, WHAT DID YOU FIND OUT ABOUT POLITICS YOU DIDN’T KNOW ABOUT BEFORE?

NICHOLAS: I WAS ALWAYS A POLITICS ADJACENT AND IT DIFFERENT BEING ON THE OTHERS.

IT WAS MORE DYSFUNCTIONAL THAN I EXPECTED.

IN PARTICULAR THE EMPHASIS ON CAMPAIGN FUNDRAISING.

IN THE PRIMARY, WE WERE VERY GOOD AT RAISING FUNDS BUT IT MEANT I WAS TALKING TO WEALTHY AND OLDER PEOPLE.

I THINK IN PRIMARIES, THE AVERAGE VOTER IS SOMETHING LIKE 58 YEARS OLD AND THE MEDIAN DONATION COMES FROM A 63-YEAR-OLD.

YOU’RE NOT TALKING ABOUT PUBLIC SCHOOLS OR KIDS.

IT WAS ALSO CONSTRAINING -- AS A COLUMNIST I HAVE A LICENSE TO PEAS -- DIP HIS PEOPLE OFF.

GETTING VOTES WAS HARDER.

IN OREGON WE HAVE ALL KINDS OF PROBLEMS AND IT STRUCK ME THAT OFTEN DONORS WANTED TO TALK ABOUT REPUBLICANS.

IN PORTLAND, IT STRUCK ME THAT WE CAN TALK ABOUT REPUBLICANS BECAUSE THEY AREN’T ANY.

ADAM: YOU MAY HAVE BECOME MORE FRUSTRATED THAN YOU HAD BEEN BEFORE BY CERTAIN PROGRESSIVE PIETIES YOU ENCOUNTERED AND I WANT TO KNOW IF THAT’S FAIR.

A LOT OF VIEWERS WILL THINK OF YOU AS A MAN OF THE LEFT BROADLY SPEAKING WITH A LIBERAL SENSIBILITY.

WHAT WERE THE PIETIES THAT MADE YOU BALK A BIT?

NICHOLAS: THE GULF BETWEEN THE VALUES AND THE OUTCOMES, WE WERE ALL ABOUT VALUES AND SLOGANS AND HOUSING IS A HUMAN RIGHT BUT THAT DOESN’T GET PEOPLE HOUSED.

CHANGING THE LANGUAGE WITH WHICH WE REFER TO PROBLEMS.

DON’T REFER TO THEM AS HOMELESS, THEY ARE HOUSELESS.

I FOUND THAT REALLY FRUSTRATING.

THERE’S GOOD EVIDENCE ABOUT HOW TO CHIP AWAY AT SOME PROBLEMS AROUND US.

INSTEAD WE OFTEN FOCUSED ON THE PERFORMATIVE RATHER THAN SUBSTANTIAL.

ADAM: LET’S GO BACK WAY BEFORE YOU RUN FOR GOVERNOR.

I’D LIKE TO KNOW ABOUT THE ROLE YOUR FATHER PLAYED IN SHAPING YOUR WORLDVIEW AND YOUR APPROACH TO JOURNALISM AND THAT WILL REQUIRE A CRASH COURSE INTO WHO YOUR FATHER WAS AND WHAT HE EXPERIENCED BEFORE HE CAME TO THIS COUNTRY.

NICHOLAS: MY DAD WAS AN ETHNIC ARMENIAN GROWING UP IN EASTERN EUROPE.

THE FAMILY SPIED ON THE NAZIS DURING THE WAR, GOT IN TO TROUBLE, HE WAS A REFUGEE IN EASTERN EUROPE IN A CONCENTRATION CAMP.

HIS LIFE WAS SAVED BY A FRENCH DIPLOMAT THAT KIND OF BROKE THE RULES TO SAVE HIS LIFE.

HE ARRIVED IN THE U.S.

IN 1952 SPONSORED BY SOME FAMILIES IN OREGON.

IT WAS IN PARTICULAR THE WAY IN WHICH THAT FRENCH DIPLOMAT INTERVENED, WENT PRETTY CLOSE TO THE EDGE OF WHAT HE WAS SUPPOSED TO DO TO SAVE MY DAD’S LIFE.

I THINK IT SHAVED ME IN A COUPLE OF WAYS.

ONE, AS A JOURNALIST, I ENCOUNTERED ALL THE TIME CONFLICTS BETWEEN MY PROFESSIONAL OBLIGATIONS AS A NEW YORK TIMES EMPLOYEE AS A JOURNALIST, AND AS A HUMAN.

THAT EXPERIENCE WITH MY FAMILY I THINK MAY BE MORE FOCUSED ON MY HUMAN OBLIGATIONS.

AND SECOND, ALL THE TIME WE AIM TO SOLVE PROBLEMS.

I BECAME A BELIEVER IN IF YOU CAN’T SOLVE A PROBLEM, AT LEAST A DROP IN THE BUCKET, HELPED SOME FAMILY SOMEWHERE.

THESE FAMILIES HELPED MY DAD.

IT DIDN’T SOLVE THE REFUGEE CRISIS BUT IT WAS TRANSFORMATIVE FOR MY FAMILY.

ADAM: YOU ALSO TALK IN THE BOOK ABOUT YOUR FUNDAMENTAL OPTIMISM EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE COVERED ALL OF THESE HORRIFIC EVENTS, SITUATIONS THAT WOULD MAYBE PUSH SOMEONE IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION.

LET ME READ A QUOTE.

I BELIEVE THIS IS FROM THE COLUMN THAT ACCOMPANIED THE RELEASE OF YOUR BOOK IN THE TIMES.

I THINK WE HAVE A QUOTE ABOUT YOUR FUNDAMENTAL OPTIMISM.

"SOME PEOPLE SEE MY CAREER COVERING NASA CURES -- COVERING MASSACRES AND OPPRESSION AND ASSUME I MUST BE DOUR AND INFUSED WITH MISERY, A JOURNALISTIC EEYORE.

NOT SO.

NO-ISM IS AN ACT OF HOPE."

I WONDER IF THAT STEMS FROM YOUR FATHER’S EXPENSE AS WELL?

NICHOLAS: I THINK SO, HE SAW THE WORST OF HUMANITY BUT ALSO BENEFITED.

PEOPLE WERE ABLE TO INTERVENE TO HELP HIM.

I THINK DESPAIR IS FUNDAMENTALLY THEY ARE LIVING -- PARALYZING.

IN JOURNALISM WE FACE ON ALL THE PLANES THAT CRASHED RATHER THAN ALL OF THE ONES THAT ARRIVE SAFELY.

WE HAVE A CAPACITY TO CHIP AWAY AT PROBLEMS AND BUILD SELF ADVOCACY.

ADAM: HOW DO STRIKE THAT BALANCE WHEN YOU ARE DOING THINGS LIKE COVERING THE CONFLICT IN HUMAN?

I THINK WE HAVE A PICTURE OF YOU FIST BUMPING AN EXTREMELY NOW NOURISHED YOUNG MAN.

WHEN YOU ARE COVERING SOMETHING LIKE THE CONFLICT IN YEMEN, SEEING THE TOLL, OR COVERING GENOCIDE IN DARFUR.

HOW DO YOU SOUND A CLARION CALL THAT WILL MAKE PEOPLE PAY ATTENTION TO THINGS THEY DON’T WANT TO PAY ATTENTION TO, WHILE ON THE OTHER SIDE NOT MAKE THEM FEEL SO DISPIRITED THAT THEY IGNORE THE HOPEFULLY UPWARD ARC YOU DESCRIBED?

NICHOLAS: I DON’T KNOW THAT I’VE GOTTEN THE BALANCE RIGHT.

I DON’T THINK THERE’S A PERFECT ALGORITHM.

I TRY TO LAY OUT HOW BAD THINGS ARE BUT TO SHOW THAT IF WE DO SOMETHING OR OTHER, THERE CAN BE A BETTER OUTCOME, THERE IS A POTENTIAL POSITIVE ARC.

THAT IS REALLY WHAT I LEARNED COVERING DARFUR.

WAS VERY FRUSTRATED I WROTE ALL OF THESE COLUMNS AND HAVE NO IMPACT THAN I DID WORK IN SOCIAL SCIENCE ABOUT WHAT MAKES US CARE.

IT’S ABOUT INDIVIDUAL STORIES AND SHOWING PEOPLE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

IS NOT JUST UNREMITTINGLY GLOOMY.

ADAM: TELL ME IF I GOT THIS RIGHT, IF THE SCALE IS TOO VAST -- NICHOLAS: IT’S A TURNOFF.

ADAM: THERE’S A QUOTE I WOULD LOVE TO READ.

YOU RIGHT -- WRITE, WE FOCUS ON SCALE AND EMPHASIZE THE PROBLEM SO MUCH WE DON’T FULLY ACKNOWLEDGE THE OPPORTUNITIES FOR IMPROVEMENT.

HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU TO COME TO THAT REALIZATION THAT WAS A WAY TO DO IT?

NICHOLAS: IT WAS FAIRLY QUICK IN THE SENSE THAT IT EMERGED WHEN I WAS COVERING DARFUR, I WAS SO FRUSTRATING WRITING THESE COLUMNS THAT DISAPPEARED WITHOUT A TRACE.

AT THE SAME TIME IN NEW YORK CITY THERE WERE THESE TWO HAWKS.

ADAM: LIVING ON FIFTH AVENUE.

NICHOLAS: THEY WERE PUSHED OUT OF THE BUILDING BECAUSE THERE WAS BIRD DROPPINGS AND ALL OF NEW YORK WAS UP IN ARMS ABOUT THESE TWO HOMELESS HAWKS.

WHY CAN’T I GENERATE THE SAME OUTRAGE ABOUT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE BEING KILLED AND DRIVEN FROM THEIR HOMES?

THAT’S WHAT DROVE ME TO THIS WORK BY A SCHOLAR THAT EXPLAINED HOW TO GET PEOPLE TO CARE.

ADAM: WHEN I READ ABOUT YOUR EARLY LIFE, BECOMING EFFECTIVELY A WORKING JOURNALIST IN THE MIDDLE OF HIGH SCHOOL AT A TIME WHEN NOT MANY PEOPLE HAVE SETTLED ON THEIR CAREER OR ARE PUTTING OUT A PAPER, GOING ON TO HARVARD, BECOMING A RHODES SCHOLAR.

DOING IMMERSION TRAINING IN ARABIC.

AND TURNING -- IN TURNING AT THE POST.

IT IS A MODEST AND REFLECTIVE MEMOIR BUT I FELT LIKE I WAS READING ABOUT AN INEXORABLE JOURNALISTIC FORCE.

I WONDER IF IT FELT THAT WAY AS YOU ARE LIVING THROUGH IT?

NICHOLAS: NOT AT ALL.

I THINK I WAS INCREDIBLY LUCKY AT MANY STAGES AND IT COULD HAVE BEEN -- I THINK I COULD HAVE ENDED UP A REPORTER AT THE OREGONIAN AND I THINK I WOULD’VE BEEN VERY HAPPY DOING THAT.

JUST AT EACH STAGE I GOT LUCKY.

LUCK HE GETS -- BEGETS MORE LIKE.

THE RHODES SCHOLARSHIP HELPED ME GET THE WASHINGTON POST INTERNSHIP, WHICH HELPED ME GET EMPLOYED BY THE TIMES.

ADAM: YOU MAY HAVE GOTTEN LUCKY, YOU TALK ABOUT THE EXTENT YOUR FAMILY PAVED THE WAY, THE LOVE AND SUPPORT.

BUT ALSO IT WAS ABOUT HARD WORK.

WHEN YOU HAD THE RHODES SCHOLARSHIP, YOU WERE NOT JUST ENJOYING OXFORD OR THE BRITISH ISLES WHEN YOU HAD TIME OFF.

YOU WERE GOING ABROAD -- YOU WERE IN POLAND WHEN MARSHALL ALWAYS DECLARED.

IN MY RIGHT?

NICHOLAS: IT’S TRUE BUT I THINK THERE’S A TENDENCY OF PEOPLE WHO LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND SAY YOU DID EVERYTHING RIGHT, YOU WORKED HARD, YOU ARE SMART AND THAT’S WHY YOU ARE SUCCESSFUL.

I THINK FUNDAMENTALLY, THE REASON PEOPLE ARE SUCCESSFUL IS BECAUSE THEY CHOSE TO BE BORN TO AND THE REST FOLLOWS FROM THAT.

ADAM: AND THE BRAKES GO THEIR WAY.

WHERE WERE YOU TRAVELING IN AFRICA WHEN YOU MET A YOUNG WOMAN YOU WERE GOING TO MEET UP WITH WHEN YOU REACHED YOUR DESTINATION -- NICHOLAS: IT WAS IN SUDAN.

SHE LEFT, SHE HITCHED A RIDE AND HER TRUCK SLAMMED INTO ANOTHER TRUCK IN THE MIDDLE-OF-THE-ROAD AND SHE DIED.

IT WAS USEFUL, I’VE GOT TO SAY, EARLY ON IN MY CAREER, DISCOVERING THAT WE ARE MORTAL.

ANOTHER INCIDENT THAT REALLY SHOOK ME, I WAS TRAVELING WITH A FRIEND AND WE GOT TO A CHECKPOINT AND THE THING WAS GOING FINE AND AT THE CHECKPOINT THERE WERE THESE TWO TRUNKING -- DRUNKEN SOLDIERS.

I THOUGHT THEY WERE GOING TO SCHUURS -- TO SHOOT US.

THEY DID ROB US.

ADAM: WHICH COUNTRY?

NICHOLAS: IN GHANA.

ADAM: IS THAT WHERE THE SOLDIER SAID I’M GOING TO SHOW YOU?

-- TO SHOOT YOU?

NICHOLAS: THAT WAS ANOTHER CHECKPOINT BUT ALSO IN GHANA.

ADAM: THE FIRST TO CHECKPOINT YOU ARE ANTICIPATING BEING KILLED BY THE SOLDIERS AND WHAT HAPPENS?

NICHOLAS: THAT CHECKPOINT WHERE THE GUY SAID I’M GOING TO SHOOT YOU, I DON’T THINK HE WAS TRYING TO SHOOT ME I THINK HE JUST WANTED MY CAMERA.

ADAM: THE OTHER ONE -- MY RECOLLECTION IS A BUS ROLLS UP?

NICHOLAS: WE WERE LUCKY.

SUDDENLY A BUS ROLLED UP SO THE SOLDIERS HAD MORE PEOPLE TO ROB AFTER HAVING JUST ROBBED US.

WE WERE LUCKY BECAUSE OUR CAR STAYED.

ADAM: YOUR DRIVER -- NICHOLAS: IF HE HAD BEEN SMART HE WOULD HAVE LEFT BUT HE STUCK AROUND MY TAKING SOME RISK.

I BENEFITED SO MUCH FROM PEOPLE LIKE THAT AROUND THE WORLD.

ADAM: ONE THING THAT COMES UP AGAIN AND AGAIN IN THE BOOK IS WHETHER TRADITIONAL JOURNALISTIC IDEALS OF DETACHMENT AND OBJECTIVITY, BEING AN OBSERVER AND NOT AN ACTOR, WHETHER THEY ARE GOOD GUIDELINES FOR MOST JOURNALISTS OR IF THEY DESERVE TO BE SUBSTANTIALLY RECONSIDERED -- WHERE YOU COME DOWN ON THAT?

NICHOLAS: I’M CURIOUS, THINK THERE’S BEEN A REAL FERMENT IN JOURNALISM ABOUT THESE ISSUES, ABOUT SHOULD WE BE ON THE SIDELINES OR INFLUENCE OUTCOMES?

SECOND ABOUT -- ESPECIALLY SINCE DONALD TRUMP ENTERED POLITICS, TO WHAT EXTENT SHOULD WE TELL OUR AUDIENCES WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT THE MENDACITY, FOR EXAMPLE, OF A CANDIDATE?

I -- I THINK IN GENERAL WE ARE MEANT TO BE ON THE SIDELINES, BUT IF THERE IS A KID DYING IN FRONT OF US WE DON’T JUST TAKE NOTES AS THE CHILD DIES.

WE RUSH THEM TO THE HOSPITAL AND DO WHAT WE CAN.

ICE SKATED PRETTY CLOSE TO THE EDGE.

IN CHINA I HELPED A DISSIDENT LEAVE THE COUNTRY.

ADAM: ONE OF YOUR SOURCES SAID I’VE GOT TO GET OUT OF HERE.

NICHOLAS: A 19-YEAR-OLD KID, PARTLY BECAUSE HE HELPED US, HE HAD BEEN IN PRISON AND HE ESCAPED FROM PRISON AND CAME TO US AND ASKED FOR HELP.

ADAM: YOUR WIFE IMMEDIATELY SAID WE’VE GOT TO DO THIS AND YOU WERE NOT SO SURE?

NICHOLAS: I’M KIND OF EMBARRASSED I WAS NOT SURE WE SHOULD HELP HIM.

THE ONE PRETTY BASIC RULE OF BEING A FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT IS YOU DON’T HELP ESCAPED FELONS FLEE THE COUNTRY.

I THOUGHT THE NEW YORK TIMES BUREAU WOULD BE CLOSED DOWN.

I WAS WEIGHING MY OBLIGATIONS TO THE TIMES.

MY WIFE HAD A BETTER MORAL COMPASS THAN I DID AND HE WAS ABLE TO ESCAPE AND HE’S NOW IN AMERICA.

ADAM: THE TIMES WAS OK WITH WHAT YOU DID?

NICHOLAS: BECAUSE IT WORKED.

ADAM: GOOD POINT.

NICHOLAS: IF THE BUREAU HAD BEEN CLOSED DOWN ON NOT SURE THEY WOULD’VE BEEN SO ENTHUSIASTIC BUT I THINK THEY FELT THAT SAME PRIDE.

THERE HAVE BEEN THESE OTHER EXPERIENCES WHERE I LEFT THE SIDELINES AND DID TRY TO HELP PEOPLE MAYBE BECAUSE OF THE EXPERIENCE WITH MY DAD.

I’M GENERALLY GLAD I DID.

THERE’S A LARGER QUESTION ABOUT MORAL PURPOSE.

I THINK A LOT OF US WENT INTO JOURNALISM BECAUSE WE THOUGHT WE SERVE A ROLE IN SOCIETY.

WE SERVE SOME GOAL GREATER THAN THE QUARTERLY EARNINGS OF OUR COMPANIES.

I THINK A LOT OF YOUNG C TEST TEST .

ADAM: YOU TALKED ABOUT THE OP-ED BY SENATOR TOM COTTON, WHAT MADE YOU UNCOMFORTABLE ABOUT THE RESPONSE THAT ENLISTED IN TIMES LARGE PARTS OF THE TIMES NEWSROOM?

NICHOLAS: I THINK THERE’S A REAL PROBLEM WITH THE LACK OF CREDIBILITY THAT MAINSTREAM ORGANIZATIONS HAVE AMONG CONSERVATIVES AND I DON’T THINK THE SOLUTION IS TO PULL PUNCHES WHEN CONSERVATIVE POLITICIANS LIE OR MISLEAD PEOPLE.

I THINK WE WOULD HAVE MORE CREDIBILITY IF WE HAD MORE CONSERVATIVE LETTERS TO THE EDITOR, OR CONSERVATIVE OP-ED’S.

FOR THE SAME REASON I GO IN AFGHANISTAN AND TRY TO TALK TO EXTREMIST G HOTTIES TO UNDERSTAND THEIR WAY OF THINKING, IT’S IMPORTANT FOR AUDIENCES TO UNDERSTAND.

I DON’T THINK THAT LEGITIMIZES THEM, WE NEED TO BE CAREFUL TO AVOID THAT.

THAT PARTICULAR TOM COTTON OP-ED WAS NOT GREAT.

ADAM: THE IDEA OF RUNNING IT -- NICHOLAS: YEAH, THAT GOES AGAINST EVERY THING I BELIEVE IN , BUT I BELIEVE IN HAVING MORE OP-ED’S, IT’S IMPORTANT TO HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS FOR MY LIBERAL VIEWS.

ADAM: YOU MENTIONED HOW TO COVER TRUMP IS ONE OF THE BIG THINGS MEDIA WRESTLED WITH.

I WANT TO READ BRIEFLY AN EXCERPT FROM THE BOOK.

YOU WRITE, "TRADITIONAL COVERAGE IT DID NOT WORK, DISCUSSING EACH CANDIDATES ALLEGATIONS AGAINST THE OTHER WAS A SIDESHOW WHEN ONE CANDIDATE WAS RUNNING AGAINST DIMOCK FREE -- AGAINST DEMOCRACY ITSELF AND WE WERE TOO SLOW TO USE THE WORD LIE TO CAPTURE TRUMPS DELIBERATE, REPEATED FALSEHOODS."

ARE WE IN A DIFFERENT SPOT NOW THAN THE 2016 CAMPAIGN OR WRESTLING WITH THE SAME ISSUES?

NICHOLAS: WE ARE WRESTLING WITH THE SAME ISSUE AND I THINK WE ARE IN A LITTLE BETTER PLACE WE WILL FIND THAT OUT.

TO ME, THE BIGGEST FAILURE OF 2016 WAS A CABLE TELEVISION REALIZING THEY COULD MONETIZE TRUMP AND INTEREST IN TRUMP BY JUST RUNNING HIM SPEAKING ENDLESSLY LIE AFTER LIE AND NOT PROVIDING FACT CHECKING.

I THINK WE ARE GETTING BETTER AT PROVIDING THAT KIND OF CONTEXT.

BUT IT’S A VERY FINE LINE BETWEEN -- I BELIEVE THE IMPORTANCE OF COVERING THE STATEMENTS HE AND OTHERS MAKE BUT ALSO THEN PROVIDING THAT CONTEXT AND FACT-CHECK.

I THINK MAYBE TO SOME DEGREE, THE WAY WE ACT AS A FOREIGN CORRESPONDENCE, WE WILL INTERVIEW VLADIMIR PUTIN OR XI JINPING AND SAY WHAT THEY SAY BUT WE WILL ALSO TRY TO POINT OUT THEY ARE DICTATORS, THEY ARE RUTHLESS, ETC.

WE DO THAT INTUITIVELY ABOUT RUSSIA OR CHINA.

I THINK WE SHOULD TRY TO BRING THAT HOME.

ADAM: I WOULD LIKE TO THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU THING ABOUT THE MEDIA -- I KNOW THE MEDIA IS BIG -- HOW HAVE WE DONE COVERING THE WAR IN GAZA?

NICHOLAS: THERE ARE JUST SOME JOURNALISTS WHO HAVE DONE HEROIC WORK.

I THINK WE WERE QUITE GOOD AND COVERING THE OCTOBER 7 ATTACK AND THE BRUTALITY OF THAT ATTACK AND THE SUFFERING ON THE ISRAELI SIDE.

I THINK WE WERE SLOW IN REPORTING THE HORRORS UNFOLDING IN GAZA AFTER THAT.

THAT WAS PARTLY BECAUSE THERE WASN’T MUCH POLITICAL DEBATE IN THE U.S. THAT EVERYBODY WAS ACCEPTING IT.

I THINK WE OFTEN TAKE CUES FROM POLITICAL DEBATE BUT WE WERE SLOW IN ACKNOWLEDGING THE NUMBER OF CHILDREN BEING KILLED IN GAZA, THE HUNGER BUILDING.

NOW I THINK WE’VE GOTTEN BETTER AT THAT.

ADAM: I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW, YOU CHRONICLE IN THE BOOK A WIDE VARIETY OF INCREDIBLE FEATS REPORTED, COVERING TENEMENT SQUARE, DARFUR, THE WAR IN IRAQ, CHINA WITH YOUR WIFE.

YOU ARE ALSO REFLECTIVE ABOUT MISTAKES YOU’VE MADE.

YOU DON’T HESITATE TO POINT OUT LESSONS YOU’VE LEARNED GOING ALL THE WAY BACK WHEN YOU STARTED YOUR JOURNALISM CAREER IN THE MIDDLE OF HIGH SCHOOL.

AND WONDERING IF THERE ARE ONE OR TWO EXAMPLES OF THINGS THAT AS YOU LOOK BACK FROM WHAT YOU’VE MANAGED TO ACQUIRE IN THE JOURNALISTIC WORLD, ARE THERE SOME THINGS THAT STILL KNAW AT YOU?

NICHOLAS: SINCE YOU LIVE AT KIESEL, THERE WAS A CASE WHERE I AM PURSUING A STORY -- SINCE YOU MENTIONED HIGH SCHOOL, THERE WAS A CASE WHERE I AM PURSUING A STORY AND I WAS MEAN.

ADAM: THIS WAS THE MAN WHO WAS THE PROGENITOR OF THE MODERN-DAY MILITIA MOVEMENT?

NICHOLAS: EXACTLY, HE WAS A MILITIA MEMBER AND OF HIMSELF AND SAID EXTREMIST THINGS.

HE WAS LIVING IN THE SMALL TOWN OF ABOUT 500 PEOPLE.

HIS WIFE WAS HORRIFIED HE WAS GIVING THIS INTERVIEW.

I WROTE A LONG PIECE ABOUT HIS VIEWS AND HE ENDED UP LEAVING TOWN.

I THINK I OVERSTATED OR KIND OF IMPLICITLY, SOME KIND OF THREAT HE POSED.

I DON’T THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY HE DID, I THINK I MADE TOO MUCH OF IT AND I THINK I REALLY HURT SOMEBODY.

AND HIS WIFE AND SON.

IT’S EASY FOR US AS JOURNALISTS WHEN WE TALK AMONGST OURSELVES AND EDITORS TO GET EXCITED ABOUT A STORY AND JUMP ON IT AND SOMETIMES FORGET THE PEOPLE WE ARE WRITING ABOUT OUR COMPLICATED PEOPLE, YOU KNOW?

ADAM: THAT THERE ARE ACTUAL HUMAN LIVES AT STAKE.

I HAVE ONE, I WON’T GO INTO IT BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE NOT HERE TO LISTEN TO ME REFLECTS, BUT I HAVE ONE LIKE THAT, A STORY I WROTE, WHAT WAS ON RECORD AND WOES ON BACKGROUND AND I ENDED UP CONVEYING THINGS PEOPLE DID NOT WANT CONVEYED BECAUSE OF THE MR. UNDERSTANDING -- MISUNDERSTANDING.

THERE WAS A HUMAN COST TO IT AND I AM FILLED WITH REGRET WHEN I THING ABOUT IT.

NICHOLAS: WE SCREW UP IN JOURNALISM AND WE HURT SOURCES BECAUSE WE ARE NOT CAREFUL ENOUGH SOMETIMES.

IT’S INCUMBENT ON US TO BE AS PRUDENT AND CAUTIOUS AS WE POSSIBLY CAN BECAUSE WE HAVE THIS INCREDIBLE POWERFUL PLATFORM.

ADAM: I’M GOING BACK TO THE START OF YOUR BOOK, BUT ANOTHER BIG INFLUENCE, WE TALKED ABOUT YOUR FATHER EARLIER ON AND YOUR PARENTS INTO THE ROLE THEY PLAYED SETTING UP WHAT YOU’VE DONE, HOW IMPORTANT WAS THE COMMUNITY YOU GREW UP IN IN OREGON?

I GET THE SENSE THAT YOU TOOK LESSONS THAT MAY BE AS IMPORTANT AS ANYTHING ELSE YOU LEARNED IN YOUR LIFE.

NICHOLAS: IT’S BEEN I WOULD SAY INCREASINGLY IMPORTANT BECAUSE WHEN I WAS GROWING UP IN THIS WORKING-CLASS, BLUE-COLLAR TOWN, IT WAS FAIRLY SUCCESSFUL IT IT SEEMED LIKE THERE WAS A LOT OF UPWARD MOBILITY.

THEN THE JOBS IN THE SAWMILLS AND FACTORIES WENT AWAY.

METH ARRIVED AND PEOPLE SELF MEDICATED AND THE COMMUNITY KIND OF UNRAVELED IN IMPORTANT WAYS, OR A LOT OF FAMILIES DID.

AT THIS POINT MORE THAN A THIRD OF THE KIDS ON MY OLD SCHOOL BUS ARE GONE FROM DRUGS, ALCOHOL, SUICIDE.

ADAM: THAT’S REMARKABLE.

NICHOLAS: WHEN THIS WAS FIRST HAPPENING, MY WIFE AND I WOULD TALK ABOUT THIS.

IS THIS MY OLD SCHOOL BUS, IS IT MY TOWN?

IT WAS WORKING CLASS COMMUNITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

MY FRIENDS SUFFERED GREATLY BUT ALSO INFLICTED GREAT SUFFERING ON OTHERS.

I LOOK BACK AND I DON’T THINK JOURNALISTS, POLITICIANS, ELITES , HAVE ADEQUATELY FOCUSED ON THE INTENSE SUFFERING ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

MORE THAN 100,000 AMERICANS DYING EVERY YEAR FROM OVERDOSES.

I SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN AND I THINK THEY WERE INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT STORIES, BUT EVERY 2.5 WEEKS WE LOSE MORE AMERICANS TO THOSE DEPTHS OF DESPAIR THAN IN A DECADE IN AFGHANISTAN.

ADAM: WE’VE ONLY GOT ABOUT A MINUTE LEFT, BUT WHY USING THAT IS?

IS IT TOO HARD TO LOOK AT THE PLACE WE CALL HOME AND SEE PROBLEMS THIS DEEP AND PAINFUL?

NICHOLAS: I THINK WE ARE NOT GOOD AT TALKING ABOUT THINGS THAT ARE PAINFUL AND STIGMATIZED.

THINK THAT’S PART OF IT, AND THERE’S A GULF BETWEEN EDUCATED PEOPLE IN WORKING-CLASS PEOPLE AND OFTEN WE LOOK DOWN ON THOSE WITH LESS EDUCATION.

IT’S THE LAST PREJUDICE WE HAVE IN AMERICA AND I THINK THERE’S SOMETHING TO THAT.

ADAM: HE MENTIONED DONALD TRUMP’S SYNTAX HAVING A SIX GRADE LEVEL AND THE AVERAGE READING LEVEL IN THE UNITED STATES WAS SIX GRADE.

NICHOLAS: YEAH, WE CAN BE FULL OF OURSELVES.

WHEN WE ARE IN AFGHANISTAN COVERING THESE DISTANT PEAS -- DISTANT PLACES AND ORDINARY PEOPLE, WE NEED TO COVER THE CRISES IN OUR OWN COUNTRY.

ADAM: I WISH I HAD ANOTHER HALF-HOUR TO ASKING MORE QUESTIONS BUT WE HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BOOK, IT IS A TRUE PLEASURE TO READ.

NICHOLAS: THANK YOU.

ADAM: THE BOOK AGAIN IS "CHASING HOPE: A REPORTER’S LIFE."

COME BACK NEXT WEEK AND LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK.

THERE IS OUR EMAIL ON YOUR SCREEN.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

GOOD NIGHT.

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