>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. " HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

HUNDREDS HAVE BEEN KILLED IN GAZA AS ISRAELI AIR STRIKES RAIN DOWN IN THE MOST LETHAL ATTACK IN MONTHS.

WE HAVE THE DETAILS AND HEAR FROM INSIDE GAZA.

>>> THEN PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PRESIDENT PUTIN SPEAK.

BUT WHAT PROGRESS WILL COME OF THEIR CALL?

AND WHAT DO UKRAINIANS WANT FROM THESE PEACE TALKS?

I'M JOINED BY UKRAINIAN MP.

>>> AND -- >> WE DON'T WANT TO DO ANYTHING TO HURT IRELAND.

BUT WE DO WANT FAIRNESS.

>> OUR TENSION IS INCREASING BETWEEN IRELAND AND THE U.S., AS THE EU TRADE WAR CONTINUES AND FOREIGN POLICY DIVERGES.

WE SPEAK TO THE IRISH FOREIGN MINISTER SIMON HARRIS.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> WE HAVE NOT FOCUSED ADDS LIBERALS ON CRATING THE THINGS R SUPPLY OF THINGS PEOPLE NEED MOST.

>> JOURNALISTS DEREK THOMPSON AND EZRA KLEIN TELL US WHY DEMOCRATS NEED TO OVERCOME THEIR OWN INCOMPETENCE AND BEGIN BUILDING AN AGE OF ABUNDANCE.

>>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> AND WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EARN.

I'M PAULA NEWTON IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED IN GAZA AFTER ISRAEL UNLEASHED A HUGE BOMBARDMENT RIGHT ACROSS THE TERRITORY ON TUESDAY MORNING.

HERE'S HOW ONE WITNESS DESCRIBED THE AFTERMATH.

>> WE'VE BEEN PULLING THE REMAINS OF CHILDREN SINCE THIS MORNING.

THERE ARE MANY INJURIES AND MARTYRS WHO HAVE REACHED THE HOSPITALS, AND WE'RE STILL COLLECTING THE REMAINS OF PEOPLE, HANDS AND FEET.

THERE WAS NO PRIOR WARNING.

IT ALL HAPPENED UNEXPECTEDLY, AND PEOPLE WERE IN THEIR HOMES, NOT EVEN OUTSIDE.

>> ISRAEL SAYS IT WAS A, QUOTE, PREEMPTIVE STRIKE TARGETING MILITARY COMMANDERS, LEADERSHIP OFFICIALS AND TERRORIST INFRASTRUCTURE, ITS FOREIGN MINISTRY ADDING THAT HAMAS REFUSED TO EXTEND THE CEASEFIRE.

>> HAMAS REJECTED TWO CONCRETE MEDIATION PROPOSALS, PRESENTED BY THE U.S. SPECIAL ENVOY.

ISRAEL AGREED TO THESE PROPOSALS.

HAMAS REFUSED THEM.

THE IDEA OF STRIKING HAMAS TERRORIST TARGETS ACROSS THE GAZA STRIP, AIMING TO ACHIEVE THE WAR'S OBJECTIVES, WHICH INCLUDE THE RELEASE OF ALL OUR HOSTAGES, DISMANTLING HAMAS MILITARY AND GOVERNMENTAL INFRASTRUCTURE, THE REMOVAL OF THE TERRORIST THREAT FROM GAZA FOR SECURITY AND ITS CITIZENS.

>> TO BE CLEAR, THE CEASEFIRE IS NOW WELL AND TRULY SHATTERED.

IT HAD PREVENTED FULL-SCALE FIGHTING SINCE EARLY JANUARY AND ENABLED GAZANS TO RECEIVE VITAL AID SHIPMENT AND OF COURSE HELPED GET SEVERAL ISRAELI HOSTAGES HOME TO THEIR FAMILIES.

AFTER TUESDAY'S ATTACK, SOME HOSTAGE FAMILIES BELIEVE THE GOVERNMENT HAS GIVEN UP ON THEIR LOVED ONE.

ONE HAMAS LEADER HAS SAID THE STRIKES MARK A, QUOTE, DEATH SENTENCE FOR THOSE REMAINING HOSTAGES.

FOR GAZANS, THE FEAR IS A RETURN TO THE SUSTAINED LARGE-SCALE ATTACKS THAT HAVE ALREADY KILLED MORE THAN 48,000 PALESTINIANS SINCE OCTOBER 7th, 2023.

JOINING ME NOW FROM TEL AVIV WITH DETAILS IS OUR CORRESPONDENT JEREMY DIAMOND.

I MEAN, JEREMY, LOOK, FOREIGN MINISTER SAID ISRAEL HAD TO ATTACK GAZA DUE TO WHAT THEY DESCRIBE AS A DEAD IN THOSE CEASEFIRE TALKS WITH HAMAS, AND THEY ASSUMED THE REFUSAL TO RELEASE MORE HOSTAGES.

NOW ISRAEL ALSO SAYS HAMAS WAS PLANNING TO ATTACK ISRAEL AGAIN, APPARENTLY THEY SAY FIVE, JUST FIVE HAMAS OFFICIALS WERE KILLED.

CAN YOU TRY AND UNRAVEL FOR US RIGHT NOW THE MOTIVATIONS BEHIND THIS LATEST MOVE FROM ISRAEL.

>> WELL, AS YOU SAID, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT HAS GIVEN DIFFERENT REASONS FOR WHY THEY HAVE RETURNED TO THE FIGHT IN GAZA, WHY THEY CARRIED OUT THIS DEADLY AERIAL BOMBARDMENT OF THE GAZA STRIP LAST NIGHT.

CERTAINLY FOREMOST AMONG THEM IS THIS RATIONALE THAT HAMAS HAS REJECTED REPEATED PROPOSALS FROM THE SPECIAL ENVOY STEVE WITKOFF THAT WOULD SEE ADDITIONAL HOSTAGES RELEASE AND THIS CEASEFIRE EXTENDED.

BUT IN ADDITION TO THAT, THEY HAVE ALSO MADE THIS ARGUMENT THAT THESE WERE, QUOTE, PREEMPTIVE STRIKES AS ONE ISRAELI OFFICIAL TOLD ME BECAUSE OF THREATS FROM HAMAS PREPARATIONS THAT THEY WERE MAKING TO CARRY OUT ATTACKS AGAINST ISRAEL.

BUT THEY HAVE NOT PROVIDED ANY EVIDENCE TO BACK UP THOSE FLAMES AS OF YET, NOR HAVE THEY PROVIDED ANY FURTHER DETAILS ABOUT WHAT THOSE PREPARATIONS ACTUALLY WERE.

AND SO WHAT IS ULTIMATELY CLEAR HERE IS THERE WAS A MAJOR GAP BETWEEN WHERE HAMAS WAS AND WHERE ISRAEL WAS, AND THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT MADE A DECISION THAT THEY BELIEVE CARRYING OUT THE STRIKES IN GAZA WOULD BE THE BEST WAY TO UNLOCK THAT GAP, TO FORCE HAMAS TO ACCEPT CONDITIONS THAT THEY HAVE NOT BEEN WILLING TO ACCEPT.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU ALSO HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND OVER THE LAST SEVERAL WEEKS, WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE TAKING PLACE ACCORDING TO THE CEASEFIRE AGREEMENT THAT ISRAEL AND HAMAS SIGNED WERE SUPPOSED TO BE EXTENSIVE NEGOTIATIONS TO GET TO PHASE 2 OF THIS AGREEMENT, WHICH WOULD LEAD TO AN END OF THE WAR IN GAZA AND THE WITHDRAWAL OF ISRAELI TROOPS.

AND THIS ISRAELI GOVERNMENT LED BY PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU MADE A DECISION LONG AGO THEY WERE NOT INTERESTED IN THOSE NEGOTIATIONS, AT LEAST NOT FOR THE TIME BEING.

AND INSTEAD, WHAT THEY HAVE SOUGHT TO DO WITH SUPPORT FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WAS TO GET A SHORTER TERM DEAL, TO EXTEND THE CEASEFIRE, TO GET A SMALLER NUMBER OF HOSTAGES OUT AS RECENTLY THAT NUMBER WAS FIVE LIVING HOSTAGES, ACCORDING TO THE PROPOSAL FROM ITKOFF LAST WEEK, TRYING TO BRIDGE THAT GAP AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE WITHOUT THE PRESSURE.

>> JEREMY DIAMOND, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, YOU'RE AT HOSTAGE SQUARE RIGHT NOW.

AND I DO WANT TO HEAR FROM THE BROTHER OF TWINS HELD HOSTAGE WHO SAID THIS TO CNN.

>> BASICALLY, I'M TERRIFIED FOR THE LIFE OF MY TWO LITTLE BROTHERS.

WE KNOW THAT THROUGH MILITARY PRESSURE, A FEW, WE CAN COUNT THEM ON THE HANDS, ON THE FINGERS, HOW MANY HOSTAGES CAME BACK THROUGH MILITARY PRESSURE.

WE NEED A CEASEFIRE TO RELEASE MY BROTHERS.

THEY ARE STILL ALIVE, AND WE NEED EVERYTHING TO BRING THEM BACK.

>> JEREMY, HOW ARE THOSE FAMILIES FEELING NOW?

BECAUSE THEY HAD HAD SO MUCH HOPE THAT THEY WOULD FINALLY GET THEIR LOVED ONES BACK.

>> YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT.

WE HAVE HEARD ACTUALLY TODAY FROM A NUMBER OF FORMER HOSTAGES WHO WERE RECENTLY RELEASED, AND RIGHT BEHIND ME ON THE STAGE HERE, YOU CAN SEE PEOPLE WHO HAVE GATHERED BECAUSE THEY ARE WAITING TO HEAR FROM THREE OF THE FORMER HOSTAGES.

KEITH SIEGEL, EARHORN AND SASHA, AND WE HAVE HEARD FROM A NUMBER OF OTHERS THAT EXPRESSED THEIR GREAT CONCERN SEEING THE ISRAELI MILITARY CONSUMING THE STRIKES IN GAZA CONCERNED FOR WHAT IT MEANS FOR THE REMAINING HOSTAGES STILL BEING HELD INSIDE THE STRIP.

I WANT TO READ YOU THE WORDS OF YARDEN BIBAS WHO WAS RELEASED SEVERAL WEEKS AGO.

HE SAID THE MILITARY PRESSURE ENDANGERS THE HOSTAGES WHILE AN AGREEMENT BRINGS THEM HOME.

AND THAT IS THE SENTIMENT OF SO MANY FAMILIES OF THE HOSTAGES WHO BELIEVE THAT ULTIMATELY, MILITARY PRESSURE IS NOT THE WAY TO GO.

THAT INSTEAD, A NEGOTIATED SETTLEMENT TO GET THESE HOSTAGES OUT IS THE WAY FORWARD.

BUT THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT CLEARLY CHOOSING A VERY DIFFERENT PATH AT THIS HOUR.

PAULA?

>> AND THANK YOU FOR MENTIONING THAT THINK ABOUT BEING A FORMER HOSTAGE AND WAKING TO THIS NEWS AND REALLY FEARING FOR WHAT HAPPENS NEXT.

JEREMY DIAMOND FOR US FROM TEL AVIV, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> NOW WE WANT TO HEAR WHAT IS HAPPENING, OF COURSE, INSIDE GAZA.

I JUST SPOKE WITH OLGA CHEREVKO.

SHE IS A SPOKESPERSON FOR THE U.N. OFFICE FOR THE COORDINATION OF HUMANITARIAN AFFAIRS, AND SHE JOINED ME FROM AL MAWASI IN SOUTHERN GAZA.

>> ONE OF THE SINGLE WORST DEATH TOLLS.

THE NEWS ON THE GROUND SO HORRIFYING.

ONE DOCTOR INSIDE AN E.R.

DESCRIBED TO CNN THAT THERE WERE CHILDREN, WOMEN, ELDERLY, THESE ARE HIS WORDS, EVERYBODY CAUGHT IN THEIR SLEEP, STILL WRAPPED IN BLANKETS.

HE DESCRIBES IT AS TERRIFYING.

A LEVEL OF HORROR AND EVIL THAT HE SAYS FELT LIKE ARMAGEDDON.

YOU ARE THERE RIGHT NOW.

COULD YOU TELL US WHAT LEVEL OF CHAOS AND DESTRUCTION GAZA HAS BEEN FEELING IN THE LAST FEW HOURS.

>> THANK YOU, PAULA, FOR HAVING ME.

AND YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

IT'S BEEN A VERY INTENSE NIGHT AND A VERY VOLATILE DAY AS THE EVENTS CONTINUE TO UNFOLD.

THIS IS REALLY QUITE --THE LITERAL AND THE PROVERBIAL NIGHTMARE THAT WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO AVOID THAT IS UNFOLDING IN FRONT OF OUR EYES.

AND THESE HORRIFIC SCENES OF HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE DEAD AND INJURED, AND ALL THESE SCENES IN HOSPITALS ARE ABSOLUTELY HORRIFYING, AND THESE OF COURSE COME ON TOP OF MORE THAN TWO WEEKS OF CROSSINGS BEING CLOSED FOR THE ENTRY OF ANY CARGO AND THE SITUATION ALREADY BEING EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO BEGIN WITH.

>> JUST HORRIFYING.

AND WE DO HAVE MORE WITNESSES SPEAKING OUT, SAYING, LOOK, THEY SAW CHARRED BODIES, BODY PARTS STREWN EVERYWHERE.

I WANT YOU TO LISTEN TO ONE WOMAN NOW.

>> Translator: WE WERE SITTING AT THE DISPLACEMENT SCHOOL AND GETTING READY FOR THE SAHOOR.

I WAS ABOUT TO CONNECT MY PHONE THE CHARGE, WHEN ALL OF THE SUDDEN ALL THE RUBBLE FELL ON ME.

THE WOMEN STARTED SCREAMING.

BEHIND THE SCHOOL THERE WERE HUMANS IN PIECES.

MY SON WAS INJURED.

>> I MEAN, SHE IS TALKING ABOUT THE SAHOOR THERE, THE MEAL YOU HAVE BEFORE YOU START FASTING FOR RAMADAN.

THIS THE HOLY MONTH OF RAMADAN.

AND YET WE KNOW THE PRESSURE THAT GAZANS ARE UNDER EVERYWHERE.

HOW IS EVERYONE TRYING TO COPE, ESPECIALLY WITH THE INFLUX OF PATIENTS THAT ARE INJURED?

>> EXACTLY, PAULA.

THIS IS A TIME THAT SHOULD BE A TIME OF CELEBRATION AND A TIME OF JOY.

AND INSTEAD PEOPLE ARE FACING THESE HORRIFYING EXPERIENCES.

AND, OF COURSE, AS WE'VE BEEN SEEING AND WE'VE BEEN RECEIVING THE REPORTS OF HOSPITALS BEING OVERWHELMED AND ALREADY THIS IS AGAIN COMING ON TOP OF A HEALTH CARE SYSTEM THAT HAS BEEN DECIMATED OVER THE 15 MONTHS OF HOSTILITIES AND RELENTLESS VIOLENCE.

AND THE EIGHT WEEKS OF THE CEASEFIRE THAT WE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO SHOW THE WORLD HOW QUICKLY WE SCALED UP AND HOW EFFECTIVELY WE COULD DISTRIBUTE THE ASSISTANCE, ALL OF THE SUDDEN STOPPED MORE THAN TWO WEEKS AGO WHEN THE SUPPLIES STOPPED COMING IN.

AND WE'VE HAD TO THEN LOOK AT HOW TO STRETCH OUR SUPPLIES OUT FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE.

AND NOW THIS.

>> NOW THE MENACING THREAT OF MORE VIOLENCE TO COME.

WE SPOKE TO AN AID OFFICIAL YESTERDAY IN GAZA WHO SAID THAT BASICALLY, THE ENCLAVE IS ON THE BRINK OF SOCIETAL COLLAPSE.

WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE WILL HAPPEN NOW?

BECAUSE OF COURSE WHEN WE SPOKE TO HIM FROM GAZA YESTERDAY, THERE HAD NOT BEEN THIS LEVEL OF VIOLENCE.

IT HADN'T BEEN SEEN IN MONTHS.

>> YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THIS CEASEFIRE, WHAT IT OFFERED TO US AND TO THE PEOPLE HERE WAS A SLIVER OF HOPE.

AND SOMETHING TO LOOK FORWARD TO.

AND, YOU KNOW, I'LL NEVER FORGET WHEN I MET A WOMAN WHEN THE WAR WAS STILL --BEFORE THE CEASEFIRE, AND SHE TOLD ME MOST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD, THEY LOOK FORWARD TO A BETTER FUTURE.

WE AS GAZANS, ALL WE CAN DO IS LOOK BACK AND JUST HOPE THAT THE SITUATION GOES BACK TO WHAT IT WAS LIKE BEFORE THIS WAR BEGAN.

AND I THINK SHE HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD THERE, BECAUSE THIS IS --THIS IS HOW PEOPLE ARE LIVING NOW.

AND THIS REPRIEVE, WHATEVER LITTLE HOPE THAT THEY HAD COULD DISINTEGRATE IF THE SITUATION DOESN'T STABILIZE.

AND I CANNOT OVERSTATE IT.

AND IT CANNOT EMPHASIZE IT ENOUGH THAT THE CEASEFIRE MUST BE REINSTATED IMMEDIATELY.

AND ONE MORE THING I WOULD LIKE TO SEE, EVEN IF THESE HOSTILITIES CONTINUE, WE CANNOT GO BECOME TO SQUARE ONE AND TO THE SCENARIO THAT WE HAD BEFORE WHERE WE HAD TO SPEND HOURS AND HOURS WAITING FOR GREEN LIGHTS.

AND INSTEAD OF USING THESE HOURS TO HELP PEOPLE IN NEED, WE SAID WE'RE STUCK IN OUR VEHICLES TRYING TO MOVE OPERATING UNDER THESE EXTREMELY INSECURE CIRCUMSTANCES.

>> OLGA, I CAN CERTAINLY HEAR THE URGENCY IN YOUR VOICE.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION THAT HAD PROMISED PEACE?

>> WE REALLY APPEAL RIGHT NOW TO THE ENTIRE WORLD WITH ANYBODY WITH INFLUENCE TO ENSURE THAT THE CEASEFIRE IS REINSTATED IMMEDIATELY, THAT INTERNATIONAL LAW IS UPHELD, THAT CIVILIANS ARE PROTECTED, ALWAYS PROTECTED, THAT THE HOSTAGES ARE RELEASED IMMEDIATELY AND UNCONDITIONALLY, AND THAT WE ARE ABLE TO RESTART OUR DELIVERY OF ASSISTANCE, THAT THE FLOW OF ASSISTANCE RESTARTS AGAIN INTO GAZA.

>> INDEED.

OLGA CHEREVKO FROM GAZA, WE CERTAINLY HOPE FOR BETTER THINGS TO COME IN THE HOURS AHEAD.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP SPOKE WITH RUSSIA'S PRESIDENT PUTIN IN A CONVERSATION THAT LASTED HOURS TODAY AS THE AMERICAN LEADER TRIES TO PUSH HIS PEACE PLAN FORWARD.

A RUSSIAN SOURCE SAYING THE CALL WENT, QUOTE, VERY WELL.

FOR UKRAINE, THESE TALKS COME AT AN ESPECIALLY DANGEROUS MOMENT AS THEIR FORCES ARE PUSHED BACK INTO THE RUSSIAN TERRITORY OF KURSK.

SO WHAT DO THEY MAKE OF THE TRUMP-PUTIN PHONE CALL, AND WHAT WOULD AN ACCEPTABLE PEACE DEAL ACTUALLY LOOK LIKE FOR UKRAINE?

DO UKRAINIANS TRUST THE U.S. TO ACTUALLY DELIVER AN EQUITABLE PEACE?

WE GET REACTION FROM UKRAINE.

MP OLEKSY GONCHARENKO JOINS US NOW.

>> I HOPE THAT IS WORLD IS A MORE SAFER PLACE NOW.

TO BE TRULY SAFE, IT'S BETTER NOT TO HAVE RUSSIAN EMPIRE IN THE WORLD.

SO I DON'T THINK IT PPENED TODAY THAT IT DISAPPEARED.

WE WANT PEACE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE HERE IN UKRAINE, BUT IT SHOULD BE A REAL PEACE, NOT A SURRENDER.

WE WILL NEVER ACCEPT SURRENDER.

SO THIS PEACE SHOULD -- THIS DEAL SHOULD BE INSIDE UKRAINIAN RED LINES.

WHICH I WILL CALL AS FIRST NONRECOGNITION OF OCCUPIED TERRITORY, SECOND UKRAINE SHOULD BE SECURE, MEANING THAT UKRAINE MAKES ITS OWN CHOICES ABOUT WHAT ARMY TO HAVE, WHAT ALLIANCES TO JOIN, AND THIRD, SECURITY GUARANTEES.

WHAT WILL PREVENT RUSSIA FROM ATTACKING AGAIN.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE DISCUSSED THERE UKRAINIAN RED LINES.

AS YOU ARE AWARE, THERE ARE SEVERAL RUSSIAN RED LINES.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF WHAT AN ACTUAL CEASEFIRE COULD LOOK LIKE OUTSIDE OF THIS CALL, NOTING THAT UKRAINE WAS NOT ON THE PHONE CALL TODAY?

>> IF RUSSIA IS NOT UNDER PRESSURE, RUSSIAN RED LINES NEVER END.

LIKE PUTIN SAID, THERE IS NO BORDER SUPPRESSION.

SO THERE ARE NO BORDER SUPPRESSION.

SO RUSSIA IS EVERYWHERE WHERE IT'S NOT TO COUNT.

THAT'S ALL.

SO RUSSIA WILL WANT EVERYTHING.

THEY WANT UKRAINE TO DISAPPEAR.

THEY WANT UKRAINE TO HAVE AS A VESTAL STATE.

THEY WANT TERRITORIES.

THEY WANT MORE TERRITORIES.

AND ALL THIS.

BUT RUSSIA IS IN WEAK POSITION IN REALITY.

RUSSIAN ECONOMY IS IN VERY BAD SITUATION.

RUSSIAN ARMY, WHICH CLAIMED TO BE THE SECOND STRONGEST IN THE WORLD, AND REALLY STRONG ARMY, BUT UKRAINIAN ARMY SHOWED THAT IT'S ALSO STRONG.

AND RUSSIA HAS NOT ACHIEVED ANY BIG GOALS IN UKRAINE DURING ALL THIS 11 YEARS OF WAR AND THREE YEARS OF FULL-SCALE WAR.

UKRAINE FIGHTS AND WE'LL CONTINUE TO FIGHT IF IT WILL BE PERMITTED.

BUT I HOPE WE ACHIEVE TODAY SOME BREAKTHROUGH.

I REALLY HOPE SO, BECAUSE WE WANT PEACE, AND PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID HE WANTS PEACE.

BUT HE SHOULD BE READY TO PRESSURE RUSSIA.

>> WHEN YOU SAY HE SHOULD BE READY TO PRESSURE RUSSIA, ESPECIALLY ON THE POINTS THAT UKRAINIANS CANNOT GIVE UP ON, WILL NOT GIVE UP ON, DO YOU TRUST THE UNITED STATES AND PRESIDENT TRUMP TO ACTUALLY DELIVER THAT DEAL?

>> I TRUST PRESIDENT TRUMP TODAY, AND I HOPE I WILL TRUST HIM TOMORROW BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES IS ALIGNED.

PRESIDENT TRUMP IS ELECTED BY AMERICAN PEOPLE.

AND I HOPE AND I'M SURE THAT WE HAVE A LOT OF COOPERATION AHEAD OF US BETWEEN OUR COUNTRIES.

WE WILL SEE.

BUT IF PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL PROPOSE US DEAL WHICH IT WILL NOT BE INSIDE THE RED LINES WHICH I TOLD YOU IN THIS CASE THAT IT WILL BE AN AWFUL SCENARIO BECAUSE WE WILL REFUSE IT.

AND IT WILL BE BAD FOR EVERYBODY.

ABSOLUTELY FOR EVERYBODY.

SO PRESIDENT TRUMP I'M SURE KNOWS OUR RED LINES, AND I'M SURE THAT HE WILL RESPECT THEM, BECAUSE WE ARE ALLIES.

AND RUSSIA IS NOT ALLY OF THE UNITED STATES AND PUTIN IS NOT FRIEND FOR THE UNITED STATES, WHICH I'VE ALWAYS SAID MY ENEMIES ARE -- NOT JUST UKRAINIANS OR EUROPE, ANGLO- SAXONS.

AND THE FACT THAT HE IS NOW TRYING TO BE VERY POLITE WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP DOESN'T CHANGE HE IS AN AGENT WHO HATES THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

>> YOU KNOW, I DON'T HAVE TO REMIND YOU THAT THIS IS A CRITICAL MOMENT FOR UKRAINE.

YOU ARE SITTING IN ODESA, AND CERTAINLY THERE ARE STRIKES EVERY DAY IN ODESA AND BEYOND.

RUSSIA NOW HAS PUSHED UKRAINE OUT OF MUCH OF KURSK.

DO YOU SEE THE SITUATION ON THE BATTLEFIELD RIGHT NOW REALLY WEAKENING UKRAINE'S BARGAINING POWER?

AND BEFORE YOU ANSWER THAT, REMEMBER, DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN KEEPING UP WITH THE STATE OF THE BATTLEFIELD AS WELL.

>> YEAH, DEFINITELY.

WE HAVE DIFFICULT SITUATION ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

AND YES, RUSSIA ALMOST COMPLETELY KICKED US OUT FROM THE KURSK REGION, WHICH WE CONTROLLED FROM AUGUST OF LAST YEAR, PART OF IT.

BUT ALL THESE RUSSIAN SO-CALLED SUCCESSES ARE VERY, VERY SMALL IN REALITY.

IF YOU WILL TAKE A LOOK AT THE MAP OF UKRAINE, AND IF YOU WILL TAKE A LOOK AT ALL THESE SO-CALLED SUPPRESSION OF RUSSIAN ARMY, IT WILL TAKE DECADES FOR RUSSIA TO TAKE ALL UKRAINE, CENTURIES, I DON'T KNOW, WITH THEIR RATE OF THEIR MOVEMENT TODAY.

BUT THEY DON'T HAVE ABILITY TO FIGHT FOR DECADES OR CENTURIES, THAT'S TRUE.

SO THEY TRY TO SHOW THAT THEY'RE STRONG, BUT REALLY, THEY'RE NOT TOO STRONG.

AND I HOPE AND I'M SURE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS ALL THE INTELLIGENCE INFORMATION CONFIRMING IT.

>> ARE YOU NOT CONCERNED THAT RUSSIA MAY HAVE THE UPPER HAND HERE ALREADY IN TALKS?

I WANT TO MAKE A FINE POINT OF THIS, THE U.S.

GIVING THEM THE UPPER HAND WOULD MEAN YOU YOURSELF SAID TO CHRISTIANE LAST YEAR THAT AMERICA NEEDED TO KEEP ITS PROMISES ON STANDING WITH UKRAINE, AND YET YOU HAD A CRITICAL PAUSE IN MILITARY AID BECAUSE REPUBLICANS REFUSED TO BACK THE AID.

>> YEAH, IT WAS LAST YEAR.

AND TODAY WE ALSO HAD PROBLEMS WITHHOLDING UP AMERICAN MILITARY AID TO UKRAINE.

EVERY TIME IT HAS BIG CONSEQUENCES.

I JUST WANT TO REMIND ALL OF YOUR VIEWERS THAT SUPPORTING UKRAINE IS NOT JUST A CHARITY, AND IT'S NOT A TOTAL CHARITY, AND IT'S NOT JUST, YOU KNOW, JUST FIGHTING FOR VALUES.

IT'S ALSO AMERICAN RESPONSIBILITY.

1994, UKRAINE VOLUNTARILY UNDER PRESSURE FROM RUSSIA AND UNITED STATES GAVE UP ITS THE THIRD LARGEST NUCLEAR ARSENAL IN THE WORLD AT THAT TIME.

THE THIRD LARGEST.

JUST IMAGINE.

WHO WOULD HAVE THESE NUKES?

WHO WOULD EVER ATTACK US?

BUT WE GAVE IT TO RUSSIA UNDER PRESSURE FROM RUSSIA AND THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND GUARANTEES THAT THESE COUNTRIES WILL PROTECT OUR SOVEREIGNTY AND INTEGRITY.

BUT INSTEAD OF PROTECT US, RUSSIA ATTACKED US AND TRIED TO DESTROY US.

SO WITH UNITED STATES SUPPORTING UKRAINE TODAY, THEY ARE JUST PROVING TO THE WORLD THAT THE UNITED STATES IS A PARTNER JUST 30 YEARS AGO UNITED STATES PROMISED THIS TO US BY INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENT.

SO I HOPE THAT UNITED STATES WILL CONTINUE TO DO.

AND WE HAVE THE FIRST NEWS FROM THE CONVERSATION I THINK.

PRESIDENTS ANNOUNCE THAT TOMORROW WILL BE EXCHANGE OF PRISONERS OF WAR, UKRAINIAN AND RUSSIAN.

SO WE SEE THAT AT LEAST THERE IS SOME SIGNS OF TRUST BUILDING BETWEEN UKRAINE AND RUSSIA.

HOPEFULLY THE NEWS WILL CONTINUE LIKE THIS.

>> I WILL NOTE THAT IS FROM TAAS, WHICH IS THE RUSSIAN STAYS-SPONSORED MEDIA.

WE'LL AWAIT CONFIRMATION FROM THE WHITE HOUSE.

I WILL ASK YOU, YOU ARE SOUNDING QUITE CONCILIATORY, AND I UNDERSTAND THERE IS A LOT OF FATIGUE WITH THIS CONFLICT AND UKRAINIANS HAVE SUFFERED SO MUCH.

SO WE ASK YOU WHAT, DO ORDINARY UKRAINIANS SAY ABOUT WHAT THIS DEAL SHOULD LOOK LIKE?

HOW ARE THE PEOPLE THAT YOU REPRESENT REACTING TO THE POSSIBILITY OF A PEACE DEAL?

THEY HAVE GIVEN UP SO MUCH.

THEY OBVIOUSLY DO NOT WANT TO CREEP ANYWHERE NEAR SURRENDER.

>> DEFINITELY.

SURRENDER IS UNACCEPTABLE FOR US.

AND IT'S UKRAINIAN ARMY WHICH IS FIGHTING.

WE DON'T HAVE ANY BOOTS ON THE GROUND.

AND IF IT WILL BE NEEDED, WE CAN CONTINUE TO FIGHT.

BUT WHAT I'M TELLING YOU, I DEFINITELY CAN'T SPEAK OF ALL UKRAINIANS, WHICH MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

THEY HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS.

BUT I THINK IN GENERAL, THE RED LINES THAT I TOLD YOU, THEY ARE GENERALLY ACCEPTED.

SO, YES, WE RECOGNIZE THE FACT THAT UNFORTUNATELY TODAY, WE CAN'T KEEP OUT RUSSIANS FROM OUR TERRITORIES WITH THIS LEVEL OF SUPPORT THAT WE'RE HANDING, THAT WE HAVE NOW FROM OUR PARTNERS.

AND WE SEE THAT AT LEAST IT IS NO APPETITE FOR THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA TO INCREASE THIS SUPPORT, BUT QUITE OPPOSITE.

SO IN THIS SITUATION, WE CAN'T RESTORE OUR INTEGRITY RIGHT NOW.

BUT WHAT IS IMPORTANT FOR US IS TO SECURE.

WE KNOW THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE WILL FALL APART.

IT HAPPENED 100 YEARS AGO.

IT HAPPENED 30 YEARS AGO.

IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN.

AND WE KNOW THAT THIS DAY WILL COME, AND WE WILL RESTORE OUR INTEGRITY.

SECOND THING, AS I TOLD YOU IS SOVEREIGNTY.

IT IS SUPER IMPORTANT FOR US.

WE WILL NOT --WE WILL NEVER AGAIN BE A VESSEL STATE OF RUSSIA.

THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE AND UNACCEPTABLE FOR UKRAINIAN PEOPLE.

WE ARE PART OF THE CIVILIZED WORLD, THE WESTERN WORLD WHO WANT TO BECOME MEMBER OF EUROPEAN UNION AND EUROPEAN UNION IS READY TO TAKE US.

WE WANT TO BECOME MEMBER OF NATO.

NATO IS NOT READY TO TAKE US TODAY.

BUT WE WILL SEE WHAT WILL BE TOMORROW.

BUT WE SHOULD BE SOVEREIGN AND FREE IN OUR CHOICES.

AND THE THIRD THING IS THE GUARANTEE BECAUSE WE DON'T TRUST RUSSIA.

AND MY ADDRESS IS TO EVERYBODY WHO ARE NOW LISTENING AND WATCHING, AND ALSO TO PRESIDENT TRUMP.

DON'T TRUST RUSSIA.

>> OLEKSIY, WE WILL LEAVE THERE IT NOW AS WE CONTINUE TO PARSE THE INFORMATION POST PHONE CALL.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> NOW TO THE FATE OF UKRAINE.

IT'S JUST ONE POINT OF TENSION BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND ITS EUROPEAN ALLIES.

PRESIDENT TRUMP'S TRADE WAR IS ALSO BUILDING ILL WILL ACROSS THE ATLANTIC WHILE THE RENEWED STRIKES ON GAZA ARE OF PARTICULAR CONCERN TO EU COUNTRIES LIKE IRELAND, STRAINING TRADITIONALLY STRONG IRISH TIES WITH THE UNITED STATES.

THE TIES HAVE BEEN ON FULL DISPLAY THIS WEEK AS ACROSS THE COUNTRY AMERICANS AND OTHERS CELEBRATED ST. PATRICK'S DAY.

AMONG THEM, THE IRISH FOREIGN MINISTER, SIMON HARRIS.

YOU SEE HIM THERE, WHO HAS BEEN HERE MARKING THE DAY AND MEETING WITH U.S. OFFICIALS.

AND, SIR, YOU ARE WELCOME.

THANK YOU SO MUCH AND HAPPY BELATED ST. PATRICK'S DAY TO YOU AND ALL OF IRELAND, OF COURSE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> WE DO WANT TO BEGIN WITH THE LATEST NEWS HERE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PRESIDENT PUTIN HAVE DISCUSSED SOME TYPE OF UKRAINIAN SETTLEMENT.

WE'RE STILL NOT CLEAR ON EXACTLY WHAT THEY HAVE THAT IS CONCRETE.

I WILL NOTE, THOUGH, THE EU IS NOT PART OF THIS CONVERSATION.

>> WELL, AS YOU RIGHTLY SAY AND THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME ON YOUR PROGRAM, AS YOU RIGHTLY SAY, WE DON'T YET KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENED IN RELATION TO THAT TELEPHONE CALL.

BUT LET'S --LET'S GET BACK TO FIRST PRINCIPLES HERE.

EVERYBODY WANTS TO SEE PEACE.

NOBODY MORE WANTS TO SEE PEACE THAN THE PEOPLE OF UKRAINE WHO HAVE SUFFERED SO MUCH.

BUT OBVIOUSLY, HOW PEACE IS BROUGHT ABOUT MATTERS.

THE PEACE HAS TO BE LASTING.

IT HAS TO BE JUST.

IT HAS TO BE ENDURING.

AND IT ALSO HAS TO OBVIOUSLY INCLUDE UKRAINE IN ANY ROOM WORK WHERE DISCUSSIONS TAKE PLACE ABOUT PEACE AND IN EUROPE, BECAUSE THIS IS A WAR ON THE SOIL, ON THE TERRITORY OF UKRAINE.

BUT IT'S ALSO A WAR ON EUROPE IN TERMS OF OUR VALUES AND OUR FREEDOM.

SO WE AWAIT FURTHER INFORMATION FROM THE WHITE HOUSE.

I HOPE THE CALL MOVES US FURTHER IN TERMS OF A CEASEFIRE, AND I HOPE THAT THAT CEASEFIRE COULD THEN PROVIDE THE FACE FOR REAL AND MEANINGFUL ENGAGEMENT.

BUT WE DON'T HAVE THOSE DETAILS YET.

>> AND YOU DON'T HAVE THE DETAILS.

IS IT A PROBLEM THAT EUROPE IS ON THE SIDELINES?

>> WELL, EUROPE CAN'T BE ON THE SIDELINE IN RELATION TO THIS.

AS YOUR PREVIOUS CONTRIBUTOR JUST SAID, UKRAINE IS A COUNTRY THAT IS SEEKING TO JOIN THE FAMILY OF THE EUROPEAN UNION.

AND UKRAINE IS ON THE CONTINENT OF EUROPE.

AND EUROPEANS, INCLUDING IRISH PEOPLE HAVEN'T JUST SPOKEN ABOUT SOLIDARITY WITH UKRAINE.

WE HAVE PROVIDED SIGNIFICANT FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE AND ASSISTANCE IN A WHOLE VARIETY OF WAYS BECAUSE THIS MATTERS.

AND HOW THIS IS ADDRESSED MATTERS.

THE WORLD HAS NEVER DONE WELL WHEN AGGRESSION HAS BEEN AWARDED OR WHEN APEACEFUL HAS BEEN TOLERATED.

SO I WELCOME THE FACT THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WISHES TO BRING ABOUT A CEASEFIRE.

I WELCOME THE FACT THAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS ACCEPTED THAT CALL FOR AN UNSEASONAL 30-DAY CEASEFIRE, AND THAT COULD PROVIDE THE SPACE FOR MEANINGFUL ENGAGEMENT IN WHICH EUROPE MUST BE A PART.

BUT REMEMBER, THERE IS ONLY ONE PERSON WHO HADN'T ACCEPTED THE CEASEFIRE, AND THAT'S PRESIDENT PUTIN.

LET'S SEE WHERE LATER TODAY BRINGS NEWS RELATION.

BUT ANY PEACE HAS TO BE TERMS THAT IS LASTING AND ENDURING AND ABSOLUTELY INVOLVES BOTH UKRAINE AND EUROPE BEING PART OF THOSE DISCUSSIONS.

>> AND IF THIS NEGOTIATION CAN CROSS THE LINE AND GET THAT, IF IT COMES DOWN TO EUROPE PROVIDING THE SECURITY GUARANTEE FOR UKRAINE, GIVEN IRISH NEUTRALITY, YOU TOLD "THE NEW YORK TIMES" SEVERAL TIMES YOU ARE VERY CLEAR AS TO THE RULE IRELAND CAN AND CANNOT PLAY.

CAN YOU ELABORATE ON THAT FOR US?

>> YES.

MY COUNTRY IS PROUDLY MILITARILY NEUTRAL, BUT WE'RE CERTAINLY NOT POLITICALLY NEUTRAL.

WE'VE ALWAYS BEEN ON THE SIDE OF UKRAINE AND WE'VE SPOKEN UP IN RELATION TO THAT AND PROVIDED SIGNIFICANT PRACTICAL FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE.

BUT MY COUNTRY ALSO HAS A VERY PROUD TAPE-RECORD IN TERMS OF PEACEKEEPING.

AND OF COURSE IF IT GETS TO A CONVERSATION AROUND THE PROVISION OF TROOPS TO KEEPING PEACE, WE HAVE A VERY LONG-STANDING TRADITION OF PROVIDING PEACEKEEPERS OF LEBANON WHERE EEL BE NEXT WEEK WHERE FOR DECADES IRISH PEACEKEEPERS HAVE SERVED WITH DISTINCTION.

THAT'S WHAT I MEANT.

IRELAND OBVIOUSLY DOESN'T TAKE PART IN ANY MILITARY OPERATIONS IN TERMS OF CONFLICT, BUT IT TAKES A PRIDE ROLE IN PEACEKEEPING.

>> I'M GLAD YOU MENTIONED IRELAND'S ROLE IN LEBANON.

I ASK YOU DIRECTLY HOW COULD IRELAND, WHAT COULD IRELAND'S ROLE BE IN PERHAPS PEACEKEEPING IN UKRAINE?

>> SO YOU'LL UNDERSTAND WHY I DON'T WANT TO JUMP TOO FAR AHEAD IN RELATION TO THIS BECAUSE TALKING ABOUT PEACE IN UKRAINE AT A TIME WHEN PUTIN IS CONTINUING TO BOMB CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE IN UKRAINE AND ALL THE DAMAGE AND AGGRESSION THAT HAS HAPPENED THERE DOES SEEM PREMATURE.

>> BUT THE UK AND FRANCE HAVE ALREADY PUT THAT ON THE TABLE.

THAT'S WHY I ASK.

APOLOGIES TO INTERRUPT.

>> YEAH.

YEAH.

NO, NOT AT ALL.

AND WE'VE ALREADY BEEN VERY CLEAR THAT IF WE GET TO A MOMENT WHERE THERE IS A PEACEKEEPING INITIATIVE, IRELAND WOULD BE HAPPY TO CONSIDER WHAT ROLE WE CAN PLAY IN RELATION TO THAT.

I SHOULD SAY ALONG SIDE THAT, IT IS GOING TO BE NECESSARY FOR ALL COUNTRIES IN EUROPE TO CONTINUE TO PROVIDE INCREASED FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO UKRAINE.

AND MY OWN GOVERNMENT TOOK A DECISION LAST WEEK TO PROVIDE AN EXTRA 100 MILLION EURO IN ASSISTANCE TO UKRAINE BECAUSE SOLIDARITY CAN'T JUST BE ABOUT WORDS.

IT WHAT TO BE ABOUT TAKING PRACTICAL ACTIONS AS WELL AS WE'RE DETERMINED DO THAT.

>> I WANT TO TURN TO THE SITUATION IN GAZA RIGHT NOW AND IN ISRAEL FOLLOWING ISRAEL'S STRIKE ON GAZA.

YOUR GOVERNMENT CALLED FOR AN URGENT END TO HOSTILITIES.

I KNOW THAT MANY EUROPEAN COUNTRIES HAVE JOINED THAT CALL.

AT HIS WHITE HOUSE VISIT, DONALD TRUMP TOLD YOUR --TACIT APPROVAL FOR THIS TO THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT.

HE PICKING UP THE PHONE?

ARE YOU PICKING UP THE PHONE TO THE U.S. ADMINISTRATION ABOUT THIS?

>> IT SOUNDS LIKE PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS BEEN ON THE PHONE QUITE A LOT TODAY.

BUT WE'LL BE ABSOLUTELY CONTINUING TO REPRESENT OUR VIEWS IN RELATION TO THE MIDDLE EAST AND RELATION TO GAZA.

I VERY MUCH WELCOMED THE FACT THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WANTED TO SEE A CEASEFIRE, WANTED TO SEE THE RELEASE OF ALL THE HOSTAGES AND THE FLOWING OF HUMANITARIAN AID.

I KNOW THE CEASEFIRE HAS BEEN FRAGILE IN RECENT TIMES.

IT WAS A CEASEFIRE THAT ALLOWED AID TO FLOW AND CRUCIALLY ALLOWED HOSTAGES TO GET BACK TO THEIR FAMILIES.

AND I THINK OF THOSE FAMILIES TODAY.

BUT WHAT WE'VE SEEN OVERNIGHT IS UTTERLY DEVASTATING.

THOSE STRIKES HAVE SEEN CIVILIANS IMPACTED IN UNIMAGINABLE WAYS.

SEEING THE LOSS OF LIFE OF SO MANY PEOPLE, OF SO MANY CHILDREN.

AND WE WERE MAKING SOME PROGRESS TOWARDS THE CESSATION OF VIOLENCE.

IN FACT, THERE HAD BEEN INCREDIBLE WORK DONE IN RECENT DAYS BY ARAB COUNTRIES IN TERMS OF WHAT THE FUTURE OF GAZA COULD LOOK LIKE, AND WHAT WE HAVE CALLED AN ALTERNATIVE PROPOSAL IN TERMS OF HOW YOU COULD RECONSTRUCT GAZA AND HAVE A FUTURE WITHOUT HAMAS, A FUTURE FREE FROM THE TERRORIST ORGANIZATION THAT IS HAMAS AND MOVE TOWARD A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

BUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED OVERNIGHT MUST BE CONDEMNED BY ALL RIGHT-THINKING NATIONS.

IT WAS AN ATTACK THAT HAD AN INCREDIBLE IMPACT ON CIVILIANS, ON THE LOSS OF CIVILIAN LIFE.

HUNDREDS UPON HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE HAVE LOST THEIR LIVES, INCLUDING YOUNG, INNOCENT CHILDREN.

A AND THE FOCUS OF THE WORLD RIGHT NOW MUST BE ON IMMEDIATELY GETTING BACK TO A CESSATION OF VIOLENCE.

TO THAT CEASEFIRE THAT WAS FRAGILE, BUT THAT WAS ALLOWING AID ACCESS GAZA AND ALLOWING HOSTAGES BE FREED.

>> I DO WANT TO TURN NOW TO OTHER CONFLICTS, TRANSATLANTIC ONES THAT INCLUDE IRELAND.

IN THEIR WHITE HOUSE MEETING, PRESIDENT TRUMP TOLD MICHAEL MARTIN THAT IRELAND, QUOTE, TOOK OUR PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES AND OTHER COMPANIES.

HOW CAN IRELAND INFLUENCE DONALD TRUMP?

BECAUSE YOU AND I BOTH KNOW HE DOES SEEM HELL BENT ON CLAIMING RETRIBUTION.

HE CALLS IT RECIPROCITY ON THAT TRADE IMBALANCE.

>> LOOK, ANY NEW ADMINISTRATION HAS A RIGHT TO REVIEW ITS TRADE POLICY.

I RESPECT THAT AND I DON'T WANT TO INVOLVE MYSELF IN AMERICAN POLITICS.

BUT I ABSOLUTELY WANT TO INVOLVE MYSELF IN THE POLITICS THAT AFFECTS MY COUNTRY OF IRELAND AND THE EUROPEAN UNION, WHICH WE'RE PROUDLY A MEMBER OF.

I WOULD MAKE THIS POINT RESPECTFULLY THAT MANY U.S. COMPANIES HAVE DECIDED TO LOCATE IN IRELAND BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN VERY GOOD FOR THEM.

WE HAVE BEEN DELIGHTED WITH THAT INVESTMENT.

WE'VE BEEN DELIGHTED WITH THAT JOB CREATION.

BUT THEY'VE ALSO DONE VERY WELL REGARDLESS OF THE VIEWS OF THE U.S. ADMINISTRATION.

I BELIEVE THAT SO MANY U. S. COMPANIES ARE GOING TO STILL WANT TO DO BUSINESS IN EUROPE AND ARE GOING TO REQUIRE A EUROPEAN BASE.

AND I THINK IRELAND IS WELL PLACED TO CONTINUE TO PROVIDE A STABLE BUSINESS ENVIRONMENT AND HOME FOR THOSE COMPANIES.

WHEN IT COMES TO OUR RELATIONSHIP NOW, IT IS VERY MUCH A TWO-WAY BILATERAL RELATIONSHIP.

I'M SPEAKING TO YOU FROM NEW YORK WHERE IRISH COMPANIES HAVE CREATED 15,000 JOBS.

15,000 PEOPLE IN NEW YORK GOING TO WORK TODAY IN IRISH-OWNED COMPANIES.

OVER 200,000 PEOPLE RIGHT ACROSS THE UNITED STATES WORKING IN IRISH-OWNED COMPANIES.

LET'S HAVE A DISCUSSION ABOUT TRADE.

BUT LET'S TRY AND NOT --I THINK WE NEED TO LESSEN THE PERIOD OF DISAGREEMENT BETWEEN EUROPE AND THE U.S. AND TRY TO GET DOWN TO INTENSIVE TALKS ABOUT HOW WE CAN FIND AN AGREEMENT THAT IS GOD FOR THE EU, GOOD FOR IRELAND, AND GOOD FOR THE U.S., BECAUSE THIS IS A VAST TRADING RELATIONSHIP.

1.4 TRILLION EURO A YEAR ACROSS THAT ATLANTIC OCEAN BETWEEN THE U.S. AND EUROPE.

AND TARIFFS IN MY VIEW ARE NOT GOOD FOR ANYONE.

>> I WOULD SAY MANY COUNTRIES HAVE MADE THAT REPRESENTATION TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

WE'LL SEE HOW IT GOES IN A COUPLE OF MONTHS.

I DO WANT TO TURN TO A TOPIC I DIDN'T BELIEVE WE'D BE SPEAKING OF THE DAY AFTER ST. PATRICK'S DAY, BUT YESTERDAY THE WHITE HOUSE WELCOMED MIXED MARTIAL ARTS FIGHTER MICHAEL MAGAZINE McGREGGOR TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

HE WAS FOUND LIABLE IN A SEXUAL ASSAULT CASE IN IRELAND LAST YEAR.

YOU CONDEMNED THE VISIT SAYING HE DOESN'T REPRESENT IRELAND AND SAID YOUR VIEWS ON HIM ARE CLEAR AND WELL ESTABLISHED.

BUT PLEASE, REPEAT THEM HERE FOR OUR INTERNATIONAL VIEWERS, AND WHY DO YOU BELIEVE THAT DONALD TRUMP WOULD INVITE HIM TO THE WHITE HOUSE ON ST. PATRICK'S DAY?

>> SO I'M ABSOLUTELY HAPPY TO REPEAT MY VIEWS.

CONOR McGREGOR DOESN'T REPRESENT IRELAND, DOESN'T REPRESENT THE PEOPLE OF IRELAND.

CERTAINLY DOESN'T REPRESENT OUR VALUES.

THE TAOISEACH REPRESENTS IRELAND AND MANY HAVE REPRESENTED IN THE U.S. ACROSS THE COURSE OF THE LAST WEEK.

McGREGGOR REPRESENTS THE WORSE OF TOXIC MASCULINITY.

IRELAND IS A TOLERANT COUNTRY.

I SAY PARTICULARLY TO THE WOMEN AND GIRLS, CONOR McGREGOR DOES NOT SPEAK FOR OUR COUNTRY.

AND PRESIDENT TRUMP CAN INVITE WHOEVER HE WANTS TO HIS HOUSE, BUT CONOR McGREGOR IS CERTAINLY NOT THE REPRESENTATIVE OF IRELAND IN ANY MANNER OR MEANS.

NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT.

>> UNDERSTOOD.

AND WE WILL LEAVE IT THERE FOR NOW.

I DO WANT THE CORRECT MYSELF.

IT IS NOT MICHAEL McCONNER, IT IS CONOR McGREGOR.

AND I THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US, SIMON HARRIS.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

HAVE A GOOD DAY.

BYE-BYE.

>>> NEXT, WE TURN TO THE UNITED STATES WHERE THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS CREATING A TASK FORCE TO IDENTIFY FEDERAL LANDS SUITABLE FOR BUILDING AFFORDABLE HOMES.

NOW THE INITIATIVE MARKS A FIRST STEP BY THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE TO ADDRESS ONE OF THE WORST HOUSING SHORTAGES IN DECADES.

THAT SHORTAGE IS PART OF THE FOCUS OF THE NEW BOOK "ABUNDANCE. "

CO-AUTHORS DEREK THOMPSON AND EZRA KLEIN JOIN WALTER ISAACSON TO TRACE HOW THE CRISES WE CAN SEE TODAY CAN BE TRACED BACK GENERATIONS.

>> THANK YOU, PAULA.

AND DEREK THOMPSON AND EZRA KLEIN, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> SO DEREK, A FEW YEARS AGO, YOU COINED THE WORDS "THE ABUNDANCE AGENDA. "

AND NOW THIS BOOK SORT OF BUILDS ON THAT.

TELL ME WHAT YOU MEANT BY THE ABUNDANCE AGENDA.

>> THIS IS JANUARY 2022, AND I WAS STANDING IN LINE IN WASHINGTON, D.C.

IN THE FRIGID AIR, WAITING ON A COVID TEST, WHICH AT THE TIME WERE BEING RATIONED DURING THE OMICRON OUTBREAK.

AND I THOUGHT TO MYSELF, IT'S KIND OF CRAZY THAT WE ARE NOW TWO YEARS INTO A PANDEMIC AND WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH COVID TESTS.

AND I WAS THINKING ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE OF THE PANDEMIC.

IT WASN'T JUST THAT WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH COVID TESTS.

WE HAVEN'T HAD ENOUGH COVID VACCINES.

AND BEFORE THAT THERE WAS A SCARCITY OF PPE FOR HOSPITAL WORKERS.

THIS PANDEMIC WAS AN EXPERIENCE OF ONE SHORTAGE AFTER ANOTHER.

AND AS I ZOOMED OUT FROM THE EXPERIENCE OF THE PANDEMIC, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT JUST THIS PANDEMIC ALONE.

IT'S REALLY AMERICA IN THE 21st CENTURY THAT HAS DEALT WITH ONE CRISIS OF SCARCITY AFTER ANOTHER.

THERE AREN'T ENOUGH HOMES.

AND AS A RESULT, AFFORDABILITY IS A MAJOR CRISIS IN AMERICAN CITIES.

WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH CLEAN ENERGY CONSTRUCTION IN THIS COUNTRY OR MANY OTHER COUNTRIES, AND THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY CLIMATE CHANGE HAS BEEN SO DIFFICULT TO TAKE DOWN.

AND I THOUGHT ABOUT ALL THE SCARCITIES THAT HAVE DEFINED THIS MODERN AGE, I THOUGHT WHAT AMERICA NEEDS THE MOST IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE.

NOT A REALITY OF SCARCITY, BUT AN AGENDA, AN AGENDA OF ABUNDANCE.

AND I THOUGHT THIS ABUNDANCE AGENDA COULD TAKE ON HOUSING TO CREATE AN ABUNDANCE OF HOUSING.

IT COULD TAKE ON CLEAN ENERGY.

BUT FAR BEYOND THAT, YOU COULD LOOK AT ALL SORTS OF OTHER BLOCKAGES AND BOTTLENECKS IN THE ECONOMY, WHETHER IT'S POLICIES THAT LIMIT THE NUMBER OF DOCTORS WE HAVE OR POLICIES THAT MAKE IT HARDER FOR SCIENTISTS TO DO THEIR BEST WORK, WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT WHAT AN AGENDA FOR TRUE AMERICAN ABUNDANCE WOULD LOOK LIKE, AND THEN YADA, YADA, YADA, WE HAVE A BOOK.

>> SO EZRA, YOU'VE WRITTEN A LOT ABOUT THIS WHEN IT COMES TO HOUSING, WHICH IS THE CORE OF THIS BOOK IN MANY WAYS.

REALLY INTERESTING PART, INCLUDING THE SHOCKING STATISTIC THAT IN THE 1950 s, HOUSING WAS ABOUT TWICE AS MUCH AS YOUR ANNUAL SALARY.

NOW IT WOULD BE SIX TIMES AS MUCH.

WHY IS THAT?

>> BECAUSE IN THE PLACES PEOPLE WANT TO LIVE, WE STOPPED BUILDING HOMES.

IT'S REALLY THAT SIMPLE.

I'M A CALIFORNIAN.

I GREW UP IN CALIFORNIA.

I WENT TO PUBLIC UNIVERSITY IN CALIFORNIA AND THEN LIVED IN D.C. FOR 13, 14 YEARS AND MOVED BACK TO CALIFORNIA, WHICH IS WHERE I LIVED DURING A LOT OF THE WRITING OF THIS BOOK.

AND DEREK'S EXPERIENCE OF THE PANDEMIC HAS BEEN MY EXPERIENCE OF CALIFORNIA.

I LOVE MY HOME STATE.

IT IS ON THE TECHNOLOGICAL FRONTIER.

IT IS A CULTURAL FRONTIER.

IT IS BEAUTIFUL.

SO WHY IS IT LOSING HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE EVERY YEAR TO TEXAS, TO ARIZONA, TO COLORADO, TO FLORIDA?

AND THE ANSWER IS THE WORKING CLASS CAN'T AFFORD THE LIVE THERE, RIGHT.

THESE FAMILIES ARE MY FRIENDS.

I WAS IN SAN FRANCISCO WATCHING PEOPLE HAVE KIDS AND HAVE TO MOVE AWAY BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T AFFORD A HOME IN THE CITY THAT THEY OFTEN DID ESSENTIAL JOBS TO PROTECT OR TO SERVE.

AND PARTS OF THE BOOK THAT WE WROTE ARE FUTURISTIC.

PARTS OF THEM ARE ABOUT HOW WE PULL THE INTENTIONS WE WANT IN THE FUTURE FORWARD INTO THE PRESENT.

THOSE ARE THINGS THAT WE DON'T YET KNOW HOW TO BUILD.

BUT THERE IS NO TECHNICAL PROBLEM AROUND BUILDING APARTMENT BUILDINGS.

THE QUESTION OF HOW TO CONSTRUCT A HOUSE IS SOLVED.

WHAT IS THE ISSUE HERE IS POLITICS, IS PROCESS, IS THE ABILITY TO GET PEOPLE TO SAY YES.

AND FRANKLY, THE PROCESS WHERE YOU HAVE TO HAVE SO MANY PEOPLE SAY YES ALONG THE WAY.

AND EVEN LOOKING AT OTHER PROBLEMS IN CALIFORNIA.

WHY ARE WE NOT GOING TO HIT OUR CLEAN ENERGY TARGETS?

SO TEXAS, WHICH DOES NOT LOVE CLEAN ENERGY THE WAY CALIFORNIA DOES, IS BUILDING NOR CLEAN ENERGY THAN CALIFORNIA IS.

WHAT HAPPENED TO HIGH SPEED RAIL?

SORT OF THE SAME STORY.

AND SUDDENLY YOU BEGIN TO REALIZE WHAT YOU HAVE IN A LOT OF BIG LIBERAL STATES THAT IS TRUE FOR NEW YORK, TRUE FOR ILLINOIS, TRUE OR OTHERS IS WE HAVE NOT FOCUSED AS LIBERALS ON CREATING THE SUPPLY OF THE THINGS PEOPLE NEED MOST.

>> YOU KNOW, DEREK, EZRA JUST SAID AS LIBERALS.

AND THIS BOOK IS WRITTEN, BOTH OF YOU CONSIDER YOURSELVES SORT OF LIBERAL MODERATE DEMOCRATS.

BUT IT'S LARGELY PUSHES BACK AT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY FOR BEING ENGAGED IN PROCESS, REGULATION.

HOW MUCH OF THE PROBLEM --LET'S STICK WITH HOUSING -- COMES FROM REGULATIONS AND RULES AND EVERYTHING AND NINBYISM AND ZONING.

>> SOMETHING'S HAPPENED TO THE IDENTITY OF LIBERALISM IN THE COUNTRY.

BETWEEN THE 1930s AND THE 1960s, THE NEW DEALER RA, WE BUILT AND BUILT AND BUILT, AND IT WAS A DEMOCRAT, FDR THAT GOT US KICK STARTED ON THIS HABIT OF BUILDING.

WE BUILT HOUSES AND ROADS, TRANSMISSION LINES AND ELECTRICITY.

WE BUILT DAMS.

WE BUILT CANALS.

WE BUILT IT ALL.

SOMETHING HAPPENED I THINK TO THE IDENTITY OF LIBERALISM IN THE 1960s AND 1970 HAS WE DECIDED THE KEY TO BEING A GOOD LIBERAL WAS BAG GOOD AT THE POLITICS OF BLOCKING RATHER THAN THE POLITICS OF BUILDING.

AND THERE ARE LOTS OF REASONS FOR THIS SHIFT.

THE ENVIRONMENTAL SITUATION IN 1950s AMERICA WAS HORRENDOUS.

PEOPLE WERE WAKING UP TO WATERS THAT WERE DISGUSTING AND AIR THAT WAS CHOKED WITH SMOG.

SO WE MADE IT HARDER FOR STATES AND COMPANIES TO CHANGE THE PHYSICAL WORLD.

BUT THE MEDICINE OF THE 20th CENTURY THAT WE ADMINISTERED TO THIS COUNTRY HAS BECOME THE DISEASE OF THE 21st CENTURY.

IT'S SIMPLY BECOME TOO DIFFICULT TO BUILD IN THIS COUNTRY.

AND TOO OFTEN, AS WE LOOK IN THE MIRROR, WE SEE THAT IT IS LIBERALS WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS.

>> EZRA, WHY IS THIS ABOUT THAT LIBERALS DID THAT?

>> THE PARTIES RIGHT NOW, THE COALITIONS HAVE MIRROR IMAGE PROBLEMS OF EACH OTHER.

THE PERSONALITY TYPE OF THE RIGHT IS AUTOCRATIC.

AND THE PERSONALITY TYPE OF THE LEFT IS BUREAUCRATIC.

LIBERALS ARE THE RULE- FOLLOWER, THE PEOPLE WHO LISTEN TO THE LAWYERS.

ELON MUSK DOES NOT LISTEN TO THE LAWYERS, TO PUT IT GENTLY.

IN A WAY, BOTH SIDES COULD USE A LITTLE BIT MORE OF WHAT THE OTHER ONE HAS IN EXCESS.

LIBERALS COULD USE A LITTLE BIT MORE OF A KNOCK IT DOWN ENERGY.

AND CERTAINLY THE RIGHT COULD USE A BIT MORE RESPECT FOR SYSTEMS, FOR INSTITUTIONS, FOR LAWS.

THIS IS NOT JUST A KIND OF SEARING ACT OF SELF-CRITICISM FOR NO REASON.

OUR GOALS ARE LIBERAL ONES.

WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT HOUSING.

BUT DECARBONIZATION IS A HUGE PART OF THE BOOK.

AND ONE OF THE REASONS IT MAKES SENSE TO AIM THAT CONVERSATION AT LIBERALS IS THEY SHARE OUR GOALS.

WE ARE LIBERALS.

WE WANT TO DECARBONIZE.

WHEN THE RIGHT BUILDS FOSSIL FUELS AT A TORRID PACE, WHEN DONALD TRUMP GETS UP THERE AS HE HAS AND TRIES TO DESTROY THE SOLAR AND WIND INDUSTRIES, WHICH IS WHAT HE IS DOING, HE DOESN'T SHARE OUR GOALS.

HE IS NOT TRYING TO BUILD THE WORLD WE'RE TRYING TO BUILD.

THERE IS A SECOND PROBLEM WHICH IS SIMPLY OUR GOALS ARE LIBERAL.

IF LIBERAL STATES ARE NOT ACHIEVING THOSE GOALS, THAT'S AN ISSUE.

IT IS TRUE FOR A WHILE AS WE WERE RUNNING THROUGH THE NATURAL SPACE OF THIS COUNTRY, THE QUESTION OF HOW TO BLOCK THOUGHTLESS DEVELOPMENT FROM HAPPENING WAS A VERY PRESSING QUESTION.

WE HAD FUNCTIONALLY NO MUSCLE FOR DOING THAT.

NOW CLIMATE CHANGE INVERTS THAT.

TO CONSERVE ANYTHING OF THE CLIMATE WE'VE KNOWN FOR THE ENTIRETY OF HUMAN CIVILIZATION WE HAVE TO BUILD CLEAN ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE AT A TORRID PACE.

SO NOW ALL OF THE SUDDEN TO PRESERVE THE ENVIRONMENT, INSTEAD OF STOPPING THINGS FROM HAPPENING, YOU NEED TO MAKE THINGS HAPPEN VERY QUICKLY.

IT REQUIRES NEW LAWS.

IT REQUIRES NEW IDEAS.

IT REQUIRES A NEW CULTURE.

>> SO DEREK, ON THE ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUE, YOU IN THE BOOK TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE WAY THE PROGRESSIVES AND LIBERALS TEND TO APPROACH IT IS STOP GROWTH, STOP GROWTH.

THAT SEEMS TO BE ANTITHETICAL TO AN ABUNDANCE AGENDA.

WHAT SHOULD THEY BE DOING INSTEAD?

>> WE NEED TO REINVENT WHAT ENVIRONMENTALISM MEANS TO FACE THE CHALLENGES OF THE 2020s, NOT THE 1960s.

THE PROBLEMS OF TODAY ARE THAT WE CANNOT CONTINUE TO GROW BY BURNING STUFF WE FIND IN THE GROUND.

WE HAVE TO USE SOLAR AND WIND AND GEOTHERMAL, AND YES, EVEN NUCLEAR POWER TO HAVE A MODERN ECONOMY THAT PEOPLE ENJOY WITHOUT DESTROYING THE BIOSPHERE.

THAT MEANS HAVING A NEW RELATIONSHIP TO BUILDING IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD.

AND DEFINING LIBERALISM AS WHAT CAN YOU BUILD AND NOT WHAT CAN YOU BLOCK.

>> SO EZRA, IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN DID FOR CLEAN ENERGY AND THE INFRASTRUCTURE, THERE ARE MANY THINGS, BUT ONE OF THEM WAS TO TRY TO HAVE ELECTRIC VEHICLE CHARGING STATIONS ACROSS THIS COUNTRY.

I'LL TELL A TALE ABOUT ONE OF MY TULANE STUDENTS WHO ENDED UP GOING INTO CITY GOVERNMENT.

HE WAS SO PROUD HE WAS GOING THE HELP BUILD THOSE CHARGING STATIONS IN LOUISIANA, BECAUSE IT'S A STATE THING.

AND YET BY THE END OF IT, THEY HAD BUILT ZERO BECAUSE EVERY TIME HE CAME UP WITH A PLAN, THEY SAID WELL, THIS PLAN DOESN'T FIT OUR EQUITY MATRIX OR DOESN'T FIT OUR LABOR STANDARDS, OR DOESN'T FIT THIS.

SO ZERO GOT BUILT.

IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?

>> THAT'S ABSOLUTELY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

THERE IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE LIKE THAT WHICH IS IN THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL, A HUGE AMOUNT OF THE MONEY IN THAT BILL, MORE THAN $40 BILLION WAS EARMARKED FOR RURAL BROAD BAND.

IT'S A GREAT IDEA.

THAT WAS PASSED IN I FORGET IF IT'S LATE 2021 OR EARLY 2022.

EITHER WAY BY THE END OF 2024 THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE IT HOOKED UP TO BROAD BAND WAS EXACTLY ZERO PEOPLE.

YOU MAY WONDER WHY DID THEY WIN?

I TALKED TO THE BIDEN PEOPLE MANY, MANY TIMES AND I KNOW YOU HAVE TOO, AND THEY'RE VERY, VERY PROUD OF THE DECADE OF INFRASTRUCTURE INVESTMENT THAT THEY SET OFF WITH THE CHIPS ACT, THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL, WITH THE IRA.

AND I THINK IN A WAY THEY'RE CONFUSED ABOUT WHY THEY DIDN'T HAVE MORE POLITICAL UPSIDE FOR THEM.

BUT ONE REASON, MAYBE NOT THE ONLY, IS THAT PEOPLE DIDN'T FEEL IT.

THE MONEY DIDN'T MOVE FAST ENOUGH.

HAVING, YOU KNOW, GETTING $42 BILLION FOR BROAD BAND ISN'T ALL THAT IMPORTANT IF PEOPLE DON'T GET BROAD BAND.

AND A LOT OF THIS BOOK IS ABOUT THIS DYNAMIC IN WHICH DEMOCRATS WILL PASS A BIG BILL, AND SOMETIMES AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL, RIGHT, LIKE THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT OR THE STATE OR LOCAL LEVEL LIKE I REPORT IN SOME DETAIL ON LOS ANGELES' EFFORTS TO RAISE MONEY TO BUILD AFFORDABLE HOUSING, AND THEN YOU LOOK AT HOW IT'S IMPLEMENTED.

AND IT IS THE AMOUNT OF COMPLEXITY LAYERED ON TO IT IS ASTONISHING.

AND A LOT OF THESE INTENTIONS ARE WELL MEANING.

THE EQUITY INTENTIONS ARE WELL MEANING.

YOU KNOW, THE ENVIRONMENTAL THINGS BUILDING INTO IT ARE GOOD.

I WAS TALKING TO SOMEBODY WHO BUILDS AFFORDABLE HOUSING, AND MY GOD HAVE THEY BEEN SLOW IN DOING THAT IN LOS ANGELES.

SHE IS SAYING WHEN SHE TRIES TO DO IT AND HOUSING THAT IS THE FREEWAY, BACK TO THE PLANNING BOARD.

YOU NEED A HIGHER FILTRATION BECAUSE THIS WILL BE NEAR A FREEWAY.

HIGHER THAN A PRIVATE BUILDING WOULD HAVE.

AND THAT'S FINE, BUT IT'S DELAYING HOUSING WHEN THE ALTERNATIVE IS PEOPLE LIVING IN NO HOUSE AT ALL WITH A FILTRATION SYSTEM UNDER AN OVERPASS UNDERNEATH THE FREEWAY.

LIBERALS SHOULD BE MUCH ANGRIER ABOUT THIS THAN CONSERVATIVES, RIGHT.

THIS IS A PART OF POLITICS THAT UPSETS ME.

FOR CONSERVATIVES, IT'S FINE WHEN GOVERNMENT FAILS.

THEY KIND OF WANT IT TO FAIL.

THAT PROVES THEIR POINT.

LIBERALS SHOULD NOT BE EXCUSING IT WHEN IT FAILS.

THEY SHOULD BE FIXING IT WHEN IT FAILS.

THEY SHOULD BE MAKING SURE IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN.

AND THAT'S WHAT I DON'T SEE.

THAT'S THE CULTURAL CHANGE THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN HERE.

>> LET ME SAY THAT DEREK, THERE HAS BEEN SUCH A BACKLASH THAT WE NOW HAVE WHAT TRUMP IS DOING, WHAT ELON MUSK IS DOING IN GOVERNMENT.

BUT IT'S PARTLY A BACKLASH BECAUSE AS EZRA JUST SAID, THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BUILD BROAD BAND INTERNET ACCESS AND BUILD ZERO, WHERE AS MUSK AND STARLINK HAVE PUT UP A MILLION SINCE THEN.

LIKEWISE, PUT UP HUNDREDS OF THOUSAND OF CHARGERS.

DO YOU THINK THIS IS WHAT IS CAUSING THIS BACKLASH THAT HAS LED TO PEOPLE LIKE TRUMP AND MUSK AND OTHERS WANTING TO BLOW UP THE REGULATIONS?

>> NO MISTAKE, WE HAVE A RIGHT WING MOVEMENT THAT IS TRYING TO DESTROY GOVERNMENT.

AND NOT JUST DESTROY IT, DESTROY IT TO TAKE IT OVER, TO PURGE IT OF ALL SOURCES OF POTENTIAL PUSHBACK AND IDEOLOGICAL DISAGREEMENTS, RIGHT.

IT'S NOT A COINCIDENCE THAT WE'RE TURNING OVER OUR TELECOM POLICY TO ELON MUSK HIMSELF, OR THAT TRUMP IS GETTING OUT ON THE FRONT LAWN OF WHITE HOUSE IN ORDER TO MAKE AN ADVERTISEMENT FOR TESLA OR TESLER, AS WE CALLS IT.

WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT RIGHT NOW WHICH IS COMBINING THE WORST PARTS OF KLEPTOCRACY AND --GOVERNMENT BY THEFT AND GOVERNMENT OF THE WORST PEOPLE.

ALL THIS TO SAY WE NEED AN OPPOSITION MOVEMENT IN THIS COUNTRY THAT IS POPULAR AND STRONG AND COMPETENT.

AND IT'S A PROBLEM RIGHT NOW.

THE DEMOCRATS IN THE LEFT ARE UNPOPULAR AND WEAK AND OFTEN NOT COMPETENT IN THE PLACES THAT THEY GOVERN.

TO ELABORATE ON EZRA'S POINT, IT'S BEEN A TERRIBLE POLITICAL MISTAKE TO MEASURE SUCCESS IN DOLLARS AUTHORIZED RATHER THAN THINGS ACCOMPLISHED.

THAT'S HOW YOU GET CALIFORNIA AUTHORIZING $33 BILLION TO BUILD A HIGH-SPEED RAIL SYSTEM THAT DOESN'T EXIST.

IT'S HOW YOU GET A STORY OF A $1.7 MILLION TOILET, YES, $1.7 MILLION PUBLIC TOILET BUILT IN SAN FRANCISCO BECAUSE THE CITY HAS SUCH PROCEDURAL CLUTCH.

THAT'S HOW NEW YORK CITY HAS THE MOST EXPENSIVE MILE OF SUBWAY CONSTRUCTION IN THE WORLD.

IT'S HOW YOU GET THE CHICAGO MAYOR BRAGGING ON TWITTER THAT THEY SPENT $11 BILLION TO BUILD 10,000 AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNITS COMING OUT TO $1.

1 MILLION PER AFFORDABLE, AFFORDABLE HOUSING UNIT.

THIS IS THE RECORD OF A MOVEMENT THAT HAS FORGOTTEN TO JUDGE POLITICAL SUCCESS BY OUTCOMES.

AND INSTEAD HAS JUDGED POLITICAL SUCCESS BY HOW MUCH MONEY CAN WE SPEND.

>> LET ME ASK YOU THAT, DEREK.

WHY IS THERE NO DEMOCRATIC CITY MAYOR WHO IS MAKING THE CITY WORK?

>> THERE ARE DEMOCRATIC CITY MAYORS MAKING THE CITY WORK.

THERE ARE DEMOCRATIC CITY MAYORS, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA IN THE RALEIGH DURHAM, CHAPEL HILL AREA THAT IS ADDING MORE RESIDENTS THAN ALMOST ANY METRO IN THE COUNTRY.

THAT'S WHERE I'M LIVING FOR THIS YEAR.

THERE ARE MAYORS WHO ARE MAKING THINGS WORK.

IT'S HAPPENING.

AND MANY MAYOR AND MANY GOVERNORS ARE OUTCOME ORIENTED.

JARED POLIS FROM COLORADO IS A GREAT EXAMPLE OF A GOVERNOR, A DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR WHO I THINK IS THINKING IN A VERY FORWARD-LOOKING WAY ABOUT THE NEED FOR HOUSING ABUNDANCE.

HOW DO WE BRING DOWN REGULATIONS, AND HOW TO MAKE IT EASIER TECHNOLOGICALLY TO PUT UP HOUSING.

BECAUSE IF YOU CAN PUT UP HOUSING FOR CHEAP, THEN THAT REDUCES THE PRICE PEOPLE HAVE TO LIVE IN THOSE UNITS.

THERE ARE PEOPLE ON OUR SIDE.

THERE ARE YIMBYS WHO ARE YOUNGER PROGRESSIVING -- >> EXPLAIN WHAT A YIMBY IS REAL QUICK.

>> PEOPLE ON OUR SIDE WHO ARE TRYING TO ENLARGE THIS MOVEMENT.

>> I WOULD ADD TO THAT.

THE YIMBYS ARE THE YES IN MY BACKYARD FOLKS.

THEY HAVE THEIR CENTER IN SAN FRANCISCO FOR ALL THE INTELLECTUAL VICTORIES AND STATUTES PASSED, BILLS PASSED, HAVE NOT BEGUN BUILDING MORE HOUSING.

THIS VERY HARD TO DO.

EVERYBODY WANTS THE SAY I PASSED A BIG BILL ON AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

SAYING I WENT INTO THE GUTS OF THE PROCESSES AND I CLOSED DOWN A BUNCH OF WAYS PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY COULD COME OUT AND VOICE THEIR OBJECTION TO SOMEBODY BUILDING AN APARTMENT BUILDING DOWN THE BLOCK, THAT'S HARDER TO FIGHT.

YOU OFTEN DON'T HAVE THE POWER DO IT.

MAYBE THE MAYOR WANTS TO DO IT, BUT THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS DOESN'T WANT TO DO IT.

YOU SEE THIS ALL OVER, RIGHT.

GAVIN NEWSOM, THE GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA, HE KNOWS PERFECTLY WELL WHAT A PROBLEM THE HOUSING CRISIS IS BOTH FOR CALIFORNIA AND FOR ANY PRESIDENTIAL AMBITIONS HE MIGHT HARBOR.

HE HAS SIGNED BILL AFTER BILL AFTER BILL AFTER BILL.

BUT THE COALITIONAL DYNAMICS OF THIS AREN'T EASY.

THAT'S WHY IT DOES REQUIRE I THINK SOME LONG AGGRESSIVE IDEOLOGICAL CHANGE, BECAUSE NOBODY WANTS TO FOCUS ON PROCESS.

RIGHT.

NOBODY WANTS THE HEAR ABOUT IT.

YOU DON'T WIN ELECTIONS BY SAYING, WELL, I'VE RECONSTRUCTED THE OVERLAPPING JURISDICTIONAL AUTHORITIES THAT CREATED 14 VETO POINTS IN HOW WE BUILD A PUBLIC REST ROOM.

IT MAKES PEOPLE IN THE AGENCIES MAD.

THEY GET MAD AT YOU AND LEAK THINGS INTO THE PRESS.

YOU HAVE TO CREATE SUCH A CRISIS TO BREAK EGGS.

I AM, NO FAN OF WHAT DOGE IS DOING.

BUT I DO HOPE DEMOCRATS TAKE ONE THING FROM IT IS WHICH THERE IS A LOT THEY HAVE TREATED AS INVIALABLE IN THE WAY GOVERNMENT WORKS.

A LOT OF RULES, REGULATIONS, INTERAGENCY PROCESSES, NOTES FROM THEIR LAWYERS THAT WEREN'T EXACTLY LAWS.

THEY WERE JUST SORT OF GUIDANCE.

AND THEY TREATED ALL OF IT AS SOMETHING THAT WAS A HARD ABUNDANTRY.

YOU COULDN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

THERE IS A DIMENSION WHERE I THINK LIBERALS STOP, TOO MANY DEMOCRATS STOP AT THE FIRST SIGN OF INTERNAL BUREAUCRATIC RESISTANCE.

THEY TREAT THE STRUCTURE OF GOVERNMENT AS TOO SETTLED.

THE REPUBLICANS ARE TREATING IT AS COMPLETELY UNSETTLED AND ARE TRYING TO UNMAKE IT, TRYING TO DESTROY IT.

I DO NOT WANT AMERICAN POLITICS TRAPPED BETWEEN A PARTY THAT WILL NOT MAKE GOVERNMENT WORK AND A PARTY THAT WANTS TO MAKE GOVERNMENT FAIL.

WE'RE GOING TO NEED AFTER THIS SORT OF INSTITUTIONAL DEFENDERS THE DEMOCRATS BECAME THE INSTITUTIONAL AL ARSONISTS THE REPUBLICANS GAME, WE NEED A SYNTHESIS, A MOVEMENT THAT INSIST ON MAKING GOVERNMENT WORK.

NOT BECAUSE IT HATES GOVERNMENT, NOT BECAUSE IT DOESN'T WANT GOVERNMENT TO DO BIG THINGS, PRECISELY BECAUSE IT CARES ABOUT GOVERNMENT AND IT WANTS GOVERNMENT TO DO BIG THINGS.

>> DEREK THOMPSON, EZRA KLEIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY, AFTER YEARS OF SEARCHING, ASTRONOMERS HAVE IDENTIFIED A QUARTET OF SMALL ROCKY PLANETS ORBITING BARNARD STAR, THE NEAREST SINGLE STAR SYSTEM TO EARTH.

NOW THIS ANIMATION, YOU SEE IT THERE, SHOWS THE FOUR SMALL PLANETS WHIRLING AROUND BARNARD STAR IN THE CENTER THERE.

THE RESEARCHERS USED DATA FROM TELESCOPES?

CHILE AND HIGH TO CONFIRM THE DISCOVERY.

BUT SCIENTISTS CONFIRMED ALL FOUR PLANETS ARE TOO HOT TO HARBOR LIFE, MUCH LIKE OUR SOLAR SYSTEM'S INNER MOST PLANET, MERCURY.

>>> NOW MAKE SURE TO TUNE IN TO TOMORROW'S SHOW FOR CHRISTIANE'S CONVERSATION WITH TURKISH AUTHOR.

SHE'LL BE SPEAKING ABOUT HER NEWEST BOOK "THERE ARE RIVERS IN THE SKY" WHICH EXPLORES CLIMATE AND THE DECIDE ZIDI EXPERIENCE.

AND HER WARNING TO THE WEST ABOUT THE FRAGILITY OF DEMOCRACY AND THE IMPORTANCE OF PRESERVING FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND CULTURAL EXPRESSION.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR & CO." JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.

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