♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> Haynes: HI EVERYBODY AND WELCOME TO BASIC BLACK.

SOME OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR BROADCAST AND OTHERS OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR DIGITAL PLATFORMS.

I'M CRYSTAL HAYNES, YOUR HOST THIS EVENING.

CALLIE CROSSLEY IS OFF.

TONIGHT: AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

WE, LIKE YOU, ARE DEALING WITH THE EFFECTS OF THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC AND ARE TAKING PRECAUTIONS.

WE ARE WORKING WITH LIMITED STAFF, AND OUR GUESTS ARE JOINING US REMOTELY.

ABOUT 65% OF THE PEOPLE LIVING IN BOSTON ARE RENTERS, ACCORDING TO THE CITY OF BOSTON WEBSITE, AROUNDS THAT'S WITH RESIDENTS PAYING UPWARDS OF 30% OF THEIR INCOME GOING TOWARD RENT.

IF YOU ARE LOOKING TO BUY A HOME, OWNERSHIP BY PEOPLE OF COLOR IS LOW, ABOUT 30% FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS AND 17% FOR LATS LATIN RESIDENTS OWN THEIR OWN HOMES.

BLACK AND BROWN RESIDENTS ARE OPTING OUT, LEAVING THE CITY FOR NEIGHBORING OR "GATEWAY" CITIES TO FIND AN AFFORDABLE PLACE TO LIVE.

AFFORDABLE HOUSING AND HOME OWNERSHIP IS A BIG ISSUE.

MAYOR WU RECENTLY PUT TOGETHER AN ADVISORY COMMITTEE TO LOOK AT HOUSING CONDITIONS AND RENT STABILIZATION.

WHAT CAN BE DONE TO HELP COMMUNITIES OF COLOR FIND AFFORDABLE HOUSING IN THE CITY AND HOW CAN THEY ACHIEVE THE DREAM OF OWNING A HOME?

JOINING US REMOTELY: IS EMILIO DORCELY, KERRY OF URBAN EDGE IN ROXBURY AND A MEMBER OF BOSTON'S RENT STABILIZATION ADVISORY COMMITTEE; MALIA LAZU, C.E.O.

AND FOUNDER OF THE LAZU GROUP AND LECTURER AT THE M.I.T.

SLOAN SCHOOL OF MANAGEMENT; AND JOHN CRUZ III, PRESIDENT AND C.E.O.

OF CRUZ COMPANIES IN ROXBURY.

WELCOME EVERYONE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Haynes: LET'S JUMP RIGHT IN.

WE KNOW THAT BOSTON SAW A HISTORIC BUILDING BOOM, DURING THE YEARS MARTY WALSH, WHAT'S YOUR VIEW IN BOSTON'S BUILDING BOOM AND I WANT TO START WITH JOHN HERE.

>> WELL, AGAIN, FOR CONTRACTORS LIKE OURSELVES, AND DEVELOPERS LIKE OURSELVES, IT'S BEEN A BOOM FEW YEARS.

SO IT'S GREAT IF YOU ARE A CONTRACTOR OR DEVELOPER, EXCEPT FINDING HAPPY NOWADAYS, WHETHER YOU'RE A -- HELP NOWADAYS IF YOU ARE A CONTRACTOR OR IN THE CONSTRUCTION DEVELOPMENT BUSINESS, OUR ART IS TO FIND PEOPLE TO BRING INTO THE INDUSTRY AND IF SOMEONE LEAVES TO TRAIN.

THE UNFORTUNATE PART OF THAT EQUATION IS THE PRICES HAVE RISEN DRAMATICALLY OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS.

AND THE SUPPLY OF HOUSING, WHETHER IT'S RENTAL OR FOR SALE, HAS GONE DOWN ON AVAILABILITY AND UP ON THE PRICES.

IT'S CAUSING GENTRIFICATION IN BOSTON LINE I NEVER THOUGHT I'D SEE.

-- BOSTON LIKE I NEVER THOUGHT I'D SEE AND WASN'T CLOSE TO IT BEFORE.

MY BIGGEST REMEMBRANCE OF GENTRIFICATION WAS THE SOUTH END WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL BUT I GUESS I WASN'T REALLY CLOSE ENOUGH TO IT TO REALIZE THE EFFECT ON THIS ONE RIGHT HERE.

IT IS DEVASTATING, THE EFFECT OF WHAT IT'S DONE TO THE AFFORDABLE MARKET FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO EITHER BUY OR RENT.

>> Haynes: HMM.

EMILIO, YOU'RE PART OF THIS GROUP, THIS ADVISORY COMMITTEE, WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT DELIVERING ON THIS PROMISE WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A BUILDING BOOM?

>> SURE.

YOU KNOW I WOULD LIKE TO AGREE WITH JOHN.

I THINK HE -- YOU KNOW, HE SAID IT CORRECTLY THAT THIS BUILDING BOOM HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS AND SOME OF IT IS BECAUSE BOSTON HAS SEEN AN INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF RESIDENTS WHO LIVE HERE.

AND BOSTON HAS A VERY DIVERSE ECONOMY WHICH I THINK HAS ATTRACTED A LOT OF YOUNGER, MORE AFFLUENT INDIVIDUALS.

BUT WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT AFFORDABLE HOUSING IN PARTICULAR, AND ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO RENTAL, AND HOME OWNERSHIP OPPORTUNITIES, WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS THAT JUST USING A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE, WE HAVE ONE PARTICULAR PROJECT THAT WE ARE COMPLETING ON AMISH STREET, RIGHT DOWN THE STREET FROM ROXBURY, AND WE RECEIVED OVER 3,000 APPLICATIONS FOR 62 UNITS.

>> Haynes: HMM.

>> IT GIVES YOU AN IDEA WHAT THE ENORMITY OF THE NEED THAT CURRENTLY EXISTS.

ANOTHER EXAMPLE IS THAT URBAN EDGE ALSO HAS CREATED IN PARTNERSHIP OF LINDA CHAMPION A BROKERAGE FIRM WHERE WE HAVE A GROUP OF SALES FOLKS WHO WORK WITH INDIVIDUALS OF LOW TO MODERATE INCOME WHO ARE LOOKING TO PURCHASE HOMES.

AND WHAT WE'VE SEEN USING 2021 DATA IS THAT OUT MUCH ABOUT 23 INDIVIDUALS THAT WORK IN BOSTON THAT WANTED TO PURCHASE, ONLY 11 OF THEM WERE ABLE TO FIND SOMETHING THEY COULD AFFORD.

WHILE THE REMAINING MADE A CHOICE TO BUY OUTSIDE OF BOSTON.

AND IT KIND OF BRINGS TO LIGHT WHAT, YOU KNOW, A PHRASE THAT, YOU KNOW, MANY PEOPLE USE, DRIVE UNTIL YOU QUALIFY.

AND IT'S REALLY PUTTING A STRAIN ON FOLKS AND I THINK TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DELIVER ON MORE FOOTBALL HOME OWNERSHIP NOT JUST BECAUSE IT PROVIDES QUALITY OF LIFE BUT IT'S ALSO AN OPPORTUNITY TO BUILD INTO GENERATIONAL WEALTH.

>> Haynes: EMILIO I KNOW THIS IS RIGHT IN YOUR WHEELHOUSE SINCE YOU HELPED SO MANY FOLKS THROUGH THAT FINANCING PROCESS WHEN YOU WERE IN YOUR BANKING SECTOR THERE.

>> YES, WHEN YOU LOOK AT ACCESSIBILITY TO MORTGAGES, FRIENDLY MORTGAGES, URBAN EDGE 10 CAN TELL YOU AS MUCH AS I CAN, THAT THE CAPITAL DOESN'T FLOW TRADITIONALLY.

RIGHT?

AND THAT ALSO MAKES IT HARD FOR PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO QUALIFY.

AND I THINK THIS IDEA OF AFFORDABLE HOUSING IS SO CRITICAL, BECAUSE WE'RE ALSO LOOKING AT AFFORDABILITY FOR DIFFERENT LEVELS, RIGHT?

SO YOU WANT AFFORDABILITY FOR WORKING CLASS FAMILIES.

BUT YOU ALSO WANT AFFORDABILITY FOR YOUNG PROFESSIONAL FAMILIES.

RIGHT?

WE WANT EVERYONE STAYING IN BOSTON.

THAT'S THE RICHNESS OF BOSTON IS THAT WE HAD THESE, YOU KNOW, ELITE INSTITUTIONS, ALONGSIDE WORKING CLASS THRIVING UNIONS.

AND THAT'S REALLY WHAT WE WANT TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO.

AND I THINK WHAT EMILIO AND JOHN ARE TALKING ABOUT, OFFERS THE OPPORTUNITY.

WE ARE IN THIS BOOM.

RIGHT?

SO WHAT'S A BETTER TIME TO PROTECT WORKING CLASS PEOPLE THAN A TIME WHERE EVERYONE'S BUILDING.

AND I'M VERY PROUD THAT MICHELLE RAN ON THIS PLATFORM.

SHE DEFINITELY WON BY A MANDATE.

AND I HOPE THAT GIVES THE STABILIZATION COMMITTEE THAT EMILIO IS ON AND OTHER PEOPLE SOME COVER TO ACTUALLY MOVE THE NEEDLE.

AND NOT JUST -- YOU KNOW, NOT JUST PLAY TO THE LANGUAGE.

I LIVE IN ROXBURY ACTUALLY, LIVE ACROSS THE STREET FROM ONE OF YOUR COMPLEXES, JOHN.

AND I'M SEEING AND LIKE OUR NEIGHBORHOOD, WE'RE NOT COMPETING WITH THE PEOPLE WHO ARE REALLY LIVING HERE.

I FEEL LIKE I'M COMPETING WITH KIDS' PARENTS, FOR SPACE.

AND IT'S JUST A WEIRD THING TO SEE YOU BEING GENTRIFIED BY COLLEGE STUDENTS.

IT'S A REALLY WEIRD FEELING WHEN YOU'RE A GROWN ADULT WORKING REALLY HARD.

>> Haynes: YEAH WELL I DO WANT TO ASK ALL THREE OF YOU THIS.

THE CONVERSATION HAS ALWAYS MOVED TOWARDS, BUILD BABY BUILD, BUILD AS MANY UNITS AS WE CAN AS FAST AS WE CAN AND THAT IS HOW WE GET OUT OF THIS ISSUE OF AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

IS THAT REALLY THE SOLUTION?

OR DO WE NEED TO THINK OF THIS AS MORE OF A COMPLEX PROBLEM?

>> OH, IT'S A COMPLEX -- BECAUSE IT COSTS SO MUCH TO BUILD IN BOSTON, PLACES LIKE BOSTON, AND NOW WITH THE PANDEMIC, PROBABLY IN SOME CASES, MATERIAL HAS GONE UP 100% LIKE IN LUMBER THAN IT WAS A YEAR, YEAR AND A HALF AGO.

SO THE PROBLEM IS, THE COST TO BUILD, SO IF IT'S GOING TO COST YOU MORE TO BUILD, IF YOU WANT TO SERVE THE UNDERCLASS, I DON'T MEAN IT IN A CLASS WAY, BUT PEOPLE THAT DON'T MAKE SAY 140% OF THE MEDIAN INCOME, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO SUBSIDIZE THAT.

IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

THERE'S NO MAGIC TO IT.

THEY CAN'T AFFORD THE HIGH PRICES.

THE PRICES ARE THERE BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT IT COST, SO SOMEBODY HAS TO COME IN WITH A SUBSIDY AND A DEEPER SUBSIDY THAN WHAT HAS TRADITIONALLY BEEN DONE IN THE PAST.

IN ORDER TO LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD A LITTLE.

>> Haynes: HMM.

>> SURE, I'D LIKE TO FOLLOW UP WITH WHAT JOHN SAID ESPECIALLY AROUND THE SUBSIDY.

FOR THOSE WHO ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH THE SUBSIDY, BUILDING AN AFFORDABLE BUILDING THEY'RE PRETTY MUCH THE SAME PROCESS.

THE COST AS JOHN SAID ARE THE SAME.

WHAT'S DIFFERENT IS THAT AFFORDABLE HOUSING IS ABLE TO RECEIVE SUBSIDY FROM THE FEDERAL, STATE AND LOCAL LEVELS, THAT ALLOW THE DEVELOPERS TO RENT THE UNITS WITHIN AN INCOME RESTRICTED RANGE THAT ALLOWS IT TO BE AFFORDABLE TO A LARGER RANGE OF PEOPLE.

SO AS JOHN SAID, IN ORDER FOR MORE AFFORDABLE HOUSING TO BE BUILT, THERE NEEDS TO BE SIGNIFICANTLY MORE MONEY AVAILABLE FOR SUBSIDY, SO THAT PEOPLE CAN DEVELOP.

THE OTHER CHALLENGE IS THAT AS THE COST OF LAND INCREASES IN BOSTON, IT ALSO INCREASES THE COST OF DOING AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

BECAUSE YOU CAN'T SIMPLY PASS THERE COST ON, TO THE END USER, WHICH IS THE RENTER, THE WAY THAT MARKET DEVELOPERS DO.

>> Haynes: WELL I WANT TO ASK YOU ON THAT POINT EMILIO.

WE HAVE HE'S IDP'S AND PROGRAMS IN THE CITY OF BOSTON THAT ARE BASICALLY THERE TO CHECK LARGE DEVELOPERS FROM JUST SORT OF BUYING OUT OR PAYING OUT SO THAT THEY DON'T HAVE TO HAVE AFFORDABLE UNITS.

BECAUSE IT IS ABOUT THE RETURN ON YOUR INVESTMENT TOO, WHEN YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT DEVELOPMENT.

SO DO WE NEED TO HAVE STRICTER REGULATION ON THAT END RAISING THAT PERCENTAGE OF IDP, SO THAT THERE IS A BIGGER INCENTIVE FOR DEVELOPERS TO CREATE MORE UNITS OF AFFORDABLE HOUSING, LIKE WHEN A LUXURY APARTMENT COMPLEX GOES UP, MORE THAN TEN UNITS NEED TO BE AFFORDABLE.

ASSEMBLE SURE.

NO -- >> SURE.

I THINK THIS IS A DISCUSSION THAT IS CURRENTLY ALREADY HAPPENING.

AND I KNOW THAT THERE'S BEEN SOME PROPOSALS IN THE CITY COUNCIL AND AROUND THE MAYOR AROUND TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO USE SOME OF THE EXISTING PROGRAMS TO INCREASE THE AMOUNT THAT IS CONTRIBUTED AND THEN UTILIZE AND VAIF FOR SUBSIDY FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

I THINK THAT YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU LOOK AT DIFFERENT CITIES AROUND THE COUNTRY AND I THINK IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO PUT IN CONTEXT WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE IN BOSTON, IS UNIQUE IN ITS OWN WAY BUT IT'S HAPPENING IN MANY, MANY OTHER URBAN AREAS.

AROUND SO THE QUESTION IS: HOW DO YOU BALANCE IT IN THE WAY SO THAT YOU'RE NOT DEPRESSING THE NEED FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO DO DEVELOPMENT BUT STILL MEETING THE NEED?

I MEAN SOME FOLKS DO, SOME CITIES THEY DO 80-20, 80% HAS TO BE AFFORDABLE OF EVERY PROJECT OR CERTAIN TYPE OF PROJECT.

AND SO I THINK THAT THAT'S A CONVERSATION THAT REALLY NEEDS TO BE HAD.

BECAUSE AT THE RATE THAT WE'RE GOING, WE'RE NOT GOING TO REALLY MEET THE HOUSING NEEDS OF BOTH PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY HERE, BUT ALSO THE PROJECTED NEW RESIDENTS THAT ARE GOING TO BE MOVING TO BOSTON OVER THE NEXT SEVERAL YEARS.

>> Haynes: HMM.

>> JUST SAY THAT, I THINK IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY FOR PRIVATE DEVELOPERS TO REALLY LOOK AT WHAT THEIR BUSINESS MODEL IS FOR THE 21st CENTURY, RIGHT?

AND WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT THEY'RE NEEDING TO MAKE CHANGES AND DIVERSITY, RIGHT, AND THAT THE MASS PORT MODEL IS FORCING CHANGES.

AND WHAT IT'S BRINGING IS REALLY INCREDIBLE OPPORTUNITIES, RIGHT, TO EITHER ENCOURAGE BLACK BUSINESS HERE, OR PARTNER WITH INVESTORS AND DEVELOPERS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

AND THAT'S REALLY EXCITING FOR BOSTON.

AND I THINK WHAT DEVELOPERS ARE SLOWLY COMING TO REALIZE IS THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO PAY FOR CULTURE.

AND IF YOU WANT TO BECOME THE NEXT BROOKLYN, THE NEXT COOL THING, THE LAST THING YOU CAN BECOME IS THE SEA PORT.

RIGHT?

AND SO I THINK WHAT DEVELOPERS, YOU KNOW, MAYBE WANT TO GO BACK AND REREAD JANE JACOBS AND REMEMBER WHAT IT ACTUALLY TAKES TO BUILD A VIBRANT NEIGHBORHOOD IN A VIBRANT CITY AND ONCE YOU SEE THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY PUT A DIFFERENT VALUE ON AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

BECAUSE JUST LIKE PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT RETAIL DIFFERENTLY NOW RIGHT, AND SAYING WE NEED THOSE COOL BUSINESSES SO WE'RE NOT JUST GOING TO GO THROUGH THE AAA RATING, WE CAN BRING IN RIG AND WRAPS AND THIS NEXT GENERATION THEY DON'T WANT TO LIVE IN A SEGREGATED TOWN THAT THEIR PARENTS MAY HAVE GROWN UP IN.

SO I THINK IT DOES GIVE REAL ESTATE DEVELOPERS AN OPPORTUNITY TO BUILD A BUSINESS MODEL THAT WILL ACTUALLY BE REFLECTIVE OF THE 21st CENTURY AND NOT HAVE THEM GETTING BEAT UP EVERY TIME THEY GO FOR A PERMIT.

>> Haynes: WELL, MY OTHER THING WHICH I THINK WAS VERY INTERESTED IN DOING THE RESEARCH OF THIS SHOW WAS BROCKTON FOR THE FIRST TIME IN ITS HISTORY IS A MAJORITY BLACK COMMUNITY.

MAKING IT THE ONLY NEW ENGLAND CITY MANY OF ITS KIND HERE.

SO IN 2017 BROCKTON ACCOUNTED FOR ONE IN FIVE HOME LOANS TO BLACK HOMEOWNERS IN MASSACHUSETTS.

SO I'M INTERESTED IN MALIA, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT FOLKS ARE GOING TO PAY FOR A CULTURE.

LIKE THEY MAY -- BOSTON MAY NO LONGER BE ATTRIBUTABLE OF ATTRACTIVE TO PEOPLE -- ATTRACTIVE TO PEOPLE OF COLOR, IF WE DEVELOP WHAT IS RICH OUT OF IT.

I'M INTERESTED IN THIS, MEANING WHAT IS YOUR VIEW WHEN PEOPLE OF COLOR LEAVE BOSTON AND SETTLE IN GAIT WAY CITIES.

THAT RESTAURANT I LOOK, THAT SHOP I LIKE THAT BOOKSTORE I LIKE, THAT'S OVER HERE IN BROCKTON, THAT'S NOT OVER IN THE SEA PORT OR NEERCH ROXBURY ANYMORE.

>> EVEN IN ROXBURY ANYMORE, RIGHT?

THAT'S WHEN YOU LOOK AT CYCLES, SO MANY WAYS WE'RE HOUSING REFUGEES, AS EMILIO SAID, WE HAVE TO DRIVE UNTIL WE'RE QUALIFIED.

SO WHEN WE GET TO A PLAGUES WE CREATE IT.

WE -- TO A PLACE WE CREATE IT.

WE CREATE OUR CULTURE.

WE OPEN UP OUR RESTAURANTS, WE OPEN YOU OUR BOOKSTORES AND WE DO THAT WITH SAW DUST AND SPIT.

LET'S BE CLEAR, RIGHT, WE CAN DO THAT WITH VERY LITTLE.

AND THEN IT BECOMES POOL AND THE PEOPLE FROM THE SEA PORT WANT TO MOVE BACK TO BOSTON, AND HOUSING IN SO MANY AREAS AND SO I THINK WE ARE GOING TO SEE THAT.

I KNOW I'M ALREADY GOING TO HYDE PARK MORE THAN I'VE EVER GONE THERE IN MY LIFE.

I WAS LIKE HYDE PARK YOUR WE -- WE ARE GOING TO QUINCY, RIGHT?

WE ARE GOING TO BE GOING TO BROCKTON SOON, WORCHESTER.

WE WILL BE BUILDING THOSE GATEWAY CITIES AND THEY WILL BE FULL AND VIBRANT.

I HOPE THE CITY COUNCILORS AND MAYORS OF THOSE CITIES PROTECT THAT AND UNDERSTAND THEY'RE GIVING AN OPPORTUNITY TO COMPETE WITH BOSTON IN A REAL WAY AND THEY SHOULD LEAN INTO THAT AND LEAN INTO THE ECONOMIES THEY'LL BE BUILDING.

>> Haynes: EMILIO AND JOHN WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THESE FOLKS GOING TO THESE GATEWAY CITIES.

>> GO AHEAD I'LL GO NEXT.

>> I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY JOHN THAT'S A CONVERSATION -- WE ARE COMMITTED TO HELPING BOTH OUR RESIDENTS AND COMMUNITY MEMBERS REALLY BECOME FIRST TIME HOME BUYERS.

ON AVERAGE EVERY YEAR WE HAVE -- WELL ACTUALLY JUST THIS PAST F YEAR 2021, WE HAD OVER 800 INDIVIDUALS TAKE OFF FIRST TIME HOME BUYING CLASS.

BUT THE PROBLEM IS THAT WE WANT TO KEEP PEOPLE IN BOSTON.

BUT THE MARKET, AND THE INTENSITY OF HOME BUYING, REALLY MAKES IT DIFFICULT.

AND SO IT BECOMES A DIFFICULT CHOICE BETWEEN PEOPLE HAVING AN OPPORTUNITY TO BUILD INTO GENERATIONAL WEALTH BY BECOMING A HOMEOWNER IN A GATEWAY CITY OR IN ANOTHER CITY VERSUS STAYING IN BOSTON, WHICH IS WHERE MANY OF THEM WOULD LIKE, SOME PEOPLE DO CHOOSE TO GO TO BROCKTON OR RANDOLPH JUST BECAUSE THEY WANT SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

BUT A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF PEOPLE WANT TO STAY.

AND THERE'S A POLITICAL ASPECT TO THIS.

THAT AS WE BEGIN TO SHIFT, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU SEE WHO'S IN ELECTED OFFICE, AND WHO VOTES FOR THEM.

SO THERE IS SOMETHING TO BE SAID THAT THE VALUE OF KEEPING PEOPLE IN BOSTON GOES FAR BEYOND JUST THE CULTURAL WHICH I THINK IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT.

BUT THIS ALSO HAS A POLITICAL COMPONENT OF MAKING SURE THAT YOU HAVE VOTERS OF A DIVERSE BACKGROUND WHO CAN CONTINUE TO LIVE IN THE NEIGHBORHOODS THAT THEY GREW UP IN.

>> Haynes: JOHN THERE WAS SOMETHING YOU WANTED TO ADD.

>> I THINK FROM MY PERSPECTIVE I, AGAIN I'M A FOR PROFIT DEVELOPER NOT A NONPROFIT.

BUT COSTS AFFECT BOTH.

WE BOTH HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE RISING COSTS THAT MAKES BOSTON MORE DIFFICULT TO DEVELOP IN.

WE'RE NOW DOING SOMETHING, WE'VE DONE SOMETHING BEFORE BUT WE'RE MOVING OUT.

WE'RE GOING TO BE DOING ONE OR TWO PROJECTS IN NEW BEDFORD, WHY, THE LAND IS A LOT CHEAPER, IN BROCKTON, THE LAND IS A LOT CHEAPER, SO IT MAKES IT EASIER FOR US TO MAKE THE NUMBERS WORK.

SO A LOT OF DEVELOPERS ARE MOVING BECAUSE IT'S SO HARD TO MAKE A DEAL PENCIL OUT IN BOSTON.

WHETHER IT IS A CONDO, MAY PENCIL OUT, BUT THE NEIGHBORHOOD ISN'T GOING TO AFFORD IT SO YOU'RE GOING TO CAUSE GENTRIFICATION.

IN OUR CASE, FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING, IT'S HARD TO MAKE THE NUMBERS WORK, AND BOSTON NOW JUST TO DO AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

SO WE ARE MOVING OUT I KNOW OTHER DEVELOPERS ARE TO THE SUBURBS WHERE IT'S NOT SO EXPENSIVE TO BUILD.

THE OTHER THING IS: YOU MENTIONED, GENTRIFICATION.

AND NOT ONLY COMES FROM WHITE PEOPLE BUYING A HOME TO LIVE IN ROXBURY.

IT COMES FROM THE DEVELOPERS NOW THAT ARE REHABBING THOSE HOUSES, FOR STUDENTS AND RENTING THEM OUT TO STUDENTS.

AND, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE COME HOME AND THERE'S PARTY GOING ON IN THEIR STREETS THAT THEY GREW UP ON AND IT'S NOT THEM.

SO THERE'S A LITTLE OF THAT CULTURE PUSH BACK I THINK THAT PEOPLE ARE ANGRY, TO LOSE WHAT THEY ONCE CONSIDERED THEIRS.

>> Haynes: SO THEN IF THE LAND VALUE AND PRICE IS THE PARTICULAR ISSUE HERE, IS THE SOLUTION TO THEM LEGISLATED TO KEEP IT AFFORDABLE, WHERE WE CAN GET THE HOUSING FOR -- SO THAT FOLKS CAN STAY IN THEIR GENERATIONAL HOME?

IS THE ANSWER ON BEACON HILL I GUESS IS MY QUESTION TO EITHER OF YOU?

>> I THINK IT IS.

BUT YOU DON'T WANT TO PUNISH THE ECONOMY AND MAKE THINGS SLOW DOWN, OR YOU DON'T WANT TO PUNISH THE DEVELOPER.

YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY DEVELOP WITH HOMOGENIZED HOUSING WHERE IT DOESN'T RESTRICT IT TO ONE CLASS.

AND THAT, AGAIN, I'LL GET BACK TO, IS GOING TO TAKE SOME SORT OF PARADIGM SHIFT IN THE WAY THE CITY USES HOUSING, IT'S GOT TO COME, WE'RE AT A POINT RIGHT NOW WE'RE TRYING TO PUSH A SQUARE PEG IN A ROUND HOLE.

IT'S GOT TO TAKE SOME CHANGES FROM THE LEGISLATURE OR OTHER INITIATIVE PROGRAMS THAT ARE DIFFERENT THAN THE ONES THAT, WHETHER IT'S URBAN EDGE OR US, WE GO TO THE PART OF WHAT IS AVAILABLE TO BUILD HOUSING, THAT PART HAS TO BE FILLED UP RIGHT NOW.

IT'S NOT FILLED UP.

THERE'S A GAP.

AND SO THAT'S IT.

>> Haynes: UH-HUH.

>> I WOULD SAY IT WOULD BE REALITY CHALLENGING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO CREATE LEGISLATION THAT WOULD ARTIFICIALLY SUPPRESS THE COST OF LAND.

BUT HAVING SAID THAT, YOU KNOW, I KNOW THAT IN SOME CITIES, I DON'T KNOW IF THEY'VE TRIED THIS FOR VACANT LOTS OR LAND.

BUT THERE'S BEEN SOME CITIES THAT HAVE DEVELOPED FLIP TAXES FOR SPECIFIC PROPERTIES, OR THE IDEA THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING IN, BUYING THINGS LOW, HOLDING IT FOR A FEW MONTHS AND THEN SELLING IT AT A SIGNIFICANT INCREASE.

THAT'S SOMETHING I'VE SEEN SOME CITIES DO THROUGH LEGISLATION HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO BUT AGAIN, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THIS AS A FULL PICTURE.

THERE IS THE ISSUE OF HOME OWNERSHIP BUT THERE IS ALSO THE ISSUE OF RENTALS.

AND ONE OF THE ISSUE OF WHY RENT SUBSTANTIALLYIZATION CONTINUES TO COME UP AND WE HAVE TO GIVE MAYOR WU CREDIT FOR NOT ONLY CAMPAIGNING ON SAYING THAT SHE WOULD BE LOOKING INTO THIS BUT THEN FOLLOWING THROUGH ON HER CAMPAIGN PROMISE TO ACTUALLY PUT THIS ADVISORY GROUP TOGETHER, BECAUSE PART OF IT IS THAT PEOPLE NEED SOME PREDICTABILITY, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE WITH LOW TO MODERATE INCOME.

SO THAT ANY GIVEN YEAR SOMEONE'S RENT ISN'T INCREASING BY 40, 50, OR MORE PERCENT.

>> Haynes: RIGHT.

>> YOU HAVE TO BALANCE THAT WITH THE NEEDS OF THE LANDLORD BECAUSE ENERGY CONTINUE TO ENERGIES OR OTHER COSTS.

HOW DO YOU SUPPORT LOW TO MODERATE INCOME PEOPLE WHO WANT TO STAY IN BOSTON AND WHO WITHOUT SOME PREDICTABILITY ARE KIND OF MOVING FROM PLACE TO PLACE.

THAT HAS IMPACT ON CHILDREN AND THE SCHOOLS THEY ATTEND AND THEIR ABLE ABILITY TO BE SUCCESSFUL AND IT ALSO DESTABILIZES NEIGHBORHOODS.

I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO THE ADVISORY GROUP HAVING SOME REALLY DEEP CONVERSATIONS AND I'M JUST SOMETHING THAT THE MAYOR HAS DECIDED IT'S IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO BRING A REALLY RICH DIVERSE GROUP OF PEOPLE TO HAVE THIS IMPORTANT CONVERSATION.

>> Haynes: IN THE LAST TWO MINUTES WE HAVE HAD IN THIS BROADCAST SPACE, AND MALIA I'M GOING TO HAVE YOU GO FIRST, WHAT DO WE SEE IN A FEW WORDS THE SOLUTION MOVING FORWARD SO THAT FOLKS CAN STAY IN BOSTON AND WE CAN KEEP OUR CULTURE REACH SEEDED IN BOSTON NEIGHBORHOODS AND MALIA I'M GOING TO START WITH YOU.

>> AND EQUITABLE, RIGHT?

YOU REMEMBER THAT $8 STAFF.

I THINK JOHN SAID IT WHEN HE SAID PARADIGM SHIFT.

PART OF WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS REPAIR THE HORRIBLE EXCLUSION THAT BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE HAVE HAD FROM HOME BUYING FOR CENTURIES, RIGHT?

SO THAT MEANS THAT NOT EVERYONE GETS TO WIN THE WAY EVERYONE GETS TO WIN RIGHT NOW.

THAT THERE ACTUALLY NEEDS TO BE A PARADIGM SHIFT BECAUSE WE HAVE TO REPAIR THE HARM.

SO MORE PEOPLE HAVE TO GET RIGHT IN CERTAIN AREAS THAT WE TOOK FROM THEM AND THEY DESERVE THAT, RIGHT?

SO I THINK PARADIGM SHIFT THERE.

AND THEN YOU KNOW, THERE ARE SOME ANSWERS AT THE STATE HOUSE.

THERE ARE ANSWERS, I'M GLAD WE'RE LOOKING AT THE BPDA, I THINK HOW WE CAN PRESSURE ON ZONING AND INCENTIVES BUT ALSO, COLLEGES HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.

AND I THINK THAT THERE'S A REAL OPPORTUNITY HERE FOR THE MAYOR TO LEAN INTO THAT AND TO ENSURE THAT WE, AS TAXPAYERS AND HOMEOWNERS, IN COMMUNITIES LIKE ROXBURY, ARE NOT NEEDING TO COMPETE WITH INSTITUTIONS LIKE COLLEGES, AND THAT THEY HOUSE THEIR PEOPLE, AND THEY DON'T GET TO MAKE MONEY OFF OF US IN SO MANY WAYS, RIGHT?

WITH THE WAY THAT THEY'RE DOING.

BUT IF WE DON'T ACTUALLY SHIFT OUR THINKING AND IN WE DON'T ACTUALLY TAKE A REPAIR TIFF APPROACH TO THIS -- REPAIRATIVE APPROACH, CAPITALISM ALWAYS WIN.

THAT'S WHAT THEY ASK FOR.

>> Haynes: I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR THE BROADCAST PORTION OF THIS.

THAT'S THE END OF THIS BROADCAST AND THE END OF THIS SHOW, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US BUT STAY WITH US AS WE CONTINUE OUR CONVERSATION ON OUR DIGITAL PLATFORMS, FACEBOOK AND YOUTUBE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, I'M CRYSTAL HAYNES.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org